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Quicktime VS Isadora :: applescript ideas please



  • Hi I have a mac mini running mojave and latest isadora. I am looping 2 movies prores_lt 2560x1440px on two monitors with that resolution.


    No matter how I do it, isadora runs at a load of 2-5%, until I go fullscreen and the load jumps to 200% which causes, a surprisingly gentle but not acceptable, stutter.


    In quicktime player the two movies play supersmooth in full screen on the two monitors.


    I have two questions: 

    1. What is isadora up to that is different from quicktime player here, why would she freak out on the load like that?

    2. Anyone got an applescript for making 2 movies loop and go fullscreen on dual monitors? Or a pointer in the right direction...

    Cheers!



  • @fubbi

    I'd go with VLC. It is highly customizable by shell commands:
    https://wiki.videolan.org/VLC_...

    To start two separate instances, you could go with a second application file, renamed as 'VLC-2.app', or similar. Unfortunately, if you try configuring the settings via the apps 'preferences', it sets them globally for all instances. I haven't tried it with opening them via applescript and the appropriating command line extensions for each instance separately, though. But maybe this way you can have multiple instances with different settings.

    Best
    Dill



  • @fubbi

    Someone tried it before:
    https://stackoverflow.com/ques...



  • @fubbi said:

    No matter how I do it, isadora runs at a load of 2-5%, until I go fullscreen and the load jumps to 200% which causes, a surprisingly gentle but not acceptable, stutter.In quicktime player the two movies play supersmooth in full screen on the two monitors.

    What is the resolution of the two monitors @fubbi

    Have you tried HAP to see if there's any difference?

    Is it possible to put the two movies into one (i.e., 5120 x 1440) ? Maybe that would change something?

    @Woland Do you have a two monitor setup where you could try to repro this?

    Best Wishes,
    Mark


  • Tech Staff

    @mark said:

    What is the resolution of the two monitors @fubbi ? 

    @fubbi said:

    I am looping 2 movies prores_lt 2560x1440px on two monitors with that resolution.

    @mark said:

    @Woland Do you have a two monitor setup where you could try to repro this?

    I don't have two screens at that resolution.

    On Mojave with my 2013 Mac Pro trashcan, playing two apr.mov 2048x1080 25fps videos on my two 1080p 60hz monitors gives me a load of less than 6%, even when I customize the stage and display settings in Isadora to pretend that it's a 2k stage and a 2k display.

    On Mojave with my 2013 Mac Pro trashcan, playing one apr.mov 2048x1080 25fps video on one of my 1080p 60hz monitors and one apr.mov 2048x1080 25fps video on my 4k 60hz display (which I changed to 2560x1440 60hz) also gives me a load of less than 6%.

    My test media is apr.mov 2040x1080 25fps whereas fubbi's are apr LT(.mov?) 2560x1440 (framerate unknown).


    @fubbi 

    1. Does the load stay at 200% while you're fullscreen, or is it just in the moment after you go fullscreen and then it goes back down to normal levels?
    2. Your files are apr.mov 2560x1440, but can you tell me the framerate of the files?
    3. Your monitors are 2560x1440, but can you tell me the refresh rate?
    4. Can you tell me your target framerate setting in Isadora Preferences? (Isadora > Isadora Preferences > General > Frame Rate / Tasks > Target Frame Rate)
    5. What year is the Mac Mini and what is the graphics card in it?
    6. Do you have another Mac you can test this same setup on?


  • Hi 

    @mark the resolution is 2560x1440. Tried HAP, but proRes LT is smoother

    I have them both in one file as well, so I am going back and forth trying single or double movie player solutions

    the load is 5% for me too. I only see the 147% load for a second as I exit full screen, before it tapers back down. The load is only in show stages mode.

    Quicktime player plays them smooth as honey when just placing one clip on each screen, so I wonder if there is a path of least resistance in isadora where you let avFoundation do its thing. 
    Maybe its a system priority thing where AVF can hog whatever it wants when in presentation mode. Just speculating here, as I am not initiated in the mysteries.

    In my humble opinion this is not because of some bad system setup or version of this or that, its something to do with how the GPU is used by quicktime player vs how isadora uses it.

    Hence the applescript route, and the question; whats going on here?


  • Tech Staff

    @fubbi said:

    I am looping 2 movies

     How long are the movie files you're looping? Is it possible you're just seeing a stutter at the loop point?


    @fubbi said:

    the load is 5% for me too. I only see the 147% load for a second as I exit full screen, before it tapers back down. The load is only in show stages mode.

     So is the stutter consistent when you're in fullscreen mode? It just keeps stuttering indefinitely if you're in fullscreen?


    @fubbi 

    1. Your files are apr LT.mov 2560x1440, but can you tell me the framerate of the files?
    2. Your monitors are 2560x1440, but can you tell me the refresh rate?

    @fubbi said:

    In my humble opinion this is not because of some bad system setup or version of this or that

    We're not saying your system setup or media is bad, we're simply trying to recreate your issue because if we can't reproduce it, we can't figure out a workaround or make a change that fixes it. This is why I asked for so many details. We want to emulate your situation as closely as possible so that we can understand what the source of the issue is and help you find a solution.

    @fubbi said:

    its something to do with how the GPU is used by quicktime player vs how isadora uses it.

    Both GPU and CPU would be involved, and yes Quicktime and Isadora may use them differently, but they both also have to send the frames they render out to your displays and it's possible they may differ in how they do that as well. There's a lot one can customize about Isadora settings that one doesn't have the option to customize for Quicktime Player. That's why we're trying to understand as much of your setup as possible, because the answer for us may lie somewhere within it. It's also why I asked if you have another computer you can try this with, because if you have the same issue on multiple different computers that's important for us to know (just as it'd be important to know if you were only having the issue on a Mac Mini but not a Macbook Pro).


  • Tech Staff

    @fubbi 

    Final question:

    In Isadora Preferences, to the right of the Target Frame Rate, there's the Display Refresh Lock. What setting do you have there: Off, Scaled, or Full?

    I did my tests with it set to Target Frame Rate 30fps, Display Refresh Lock: Scaled (as that is the default).



  • @woland said:

    In Isadora Preferences, to the right of the Target Frame Rate, there's the Display Refresh Lock. What setting do you have there: Off, Scaled, or Full?

    You can try the other settings (i.e, if it is set to Scaled then try Off or Full) to see if that improves the situation.

    Best Wishes,
    Mark



  • @fubbi said:

    In my humble opinion this is not because of some bad system setup or version of this or that, its something to do with how the GPU is used by quicktime player vs how isadora uses it.

    Isadora and QuickTime Player cannot be compared because they are like apples and oranges. Remember, Isadora allows you to do things like render unlimited layers from one or more scenes, render 3D models (if you have them), etc., etc. QuickTime player does one thing: render a single movie to a window. What is happening in Isadora is 10x more complicated than what is happening in QuickTime Player. Comparing them does not help us to solve your problem.

    Please just answer all the question @Woland has asked, or else open a ticket so you two can interact more efficiently and directly than in the forum. I feel certain there is a solution, but we need as much information from you as possible to try to match the setup and help you.

    Finally, just to make sure: Isadora will show a slight pause at the loop point of a video. It's been this way for some time now. (QuickTime Player does the same if you loop it I believe.) I just want to be sure that's not what you're reporting here.

    Also, RE: this:

    Anyone got an applescript for making 2 movies loop and go fullscreen on dual monitors? Or a pointer in the right direction...

    You'll never get QuickTime Player to do this because it doesn't loop accurately, similar to the behavior in Isadora.

    Best Wishes,
    Mark



  • @mark @Woland 


    hi, thanks for all your replies

    The stutter is gentle and consistent over the duration of a 7 minutes loop. The screen is 60hz (can not be changed) and the movie 25 fps.
    It is landscape images and I can see the problem in the movements of branches or flowers as they sway in the breeze.

    I have tried infinite combinations of the frame rate and refresh sync options, with either chop pixels or stage output splitting of a single 5120px clip as well as single 2560 clips.
    I have also tried a plethora of codecs. I scaled the double prores clip down from 5120px to 4000px in media encoder, thinking that I would have a safe backup option, but that did not fix the problem and the load spiked the same way (when showing stage).

    Of course I have another computer, and also I will make it happen somehow. It's a mac mini with an SSD so I don't have unrealistic expectations (outside of pushing it to its limit). 

    But is it proprietary / priority business from apple, or has isadora somehow got a foot on the brake in this instance (or am I just not thinking about it in the right way)?
    I feel like the question is relevant for me after having to conclude that isadora can't do what QT does and not being able to explain my failure, with all due respect and well aware that it might be my own incompetence.

    I don't have the setup here anymore, as someone else is having a go at writing an applescript or VLC script. Next week I will have access again at the install.

    Ciao


  • Tech Staff

    @fubbi said:

    But is it proprietary / priority business from apple, or has isadora somehow got a foot on the brake in this instance (or am I just not thinking about it in the right way)?

    This is something we can't answer until we can reproduce the problem ourselves, which I assure you we have a vested interest in doing. If there's a problem with our software, we want to identify it and eradicate it just as much (if not more) than you want our software to work in the way you need it to in this particular instance.


    @fubbi said:

    I feel like the question is relevant for me after having to conclude that isadora can't do what QT does and not being able to explain my failure, with all due respect and well aware that it might be my own incompetence.

    Nobody is saying that you're incompetent, we're simply trying to hone in on what conditions are necessary in order to cause this issue to occur. Once we ourselves can reproduce it, we can work on a fix for it. We need to be able to have a solid repro so mark can look at the guts of Isadora while forcing the issue to happen so he can identify what exactly is causing it and then remedy it. To that end, it would be extremely helpful if you could open a support ticket and send us a link where we can download your media (a shortened version of it will work fine if the file is too large). I will go to our office today in order to pickup my second 4k monitor so that I can work with your media, on two displays with the same resolution as you have, on a Mac Mini (though my Mac Mini may be older than yours) so that I can be as close to your situation as possible. I promise we want to know why this is happening and how to have it not happen just as badly as you do.


    Thanks for helping us work this out, we really appreciate it.

    Best wishes,

    Woland



  • @woland are you at the HQ? If so this stuff is around the corner (linienstrasse) and I could show you, only if that makes it easier for you. Otherwise I will prepare the files you need.


    Thank you


  • Tech Staff

    @fubbi

    I can be there in 25 minutes. Want to meet at 6:30? I'll bring a hard drive to get the media and a notebook to write down any information I need.



  • @woland I got your mail



  • Big shoutout to @woland who went above and beyond, applied the magic touch and made it happen!

    Thank you


  • Tech Staff

    @fubbi @Woland 

    Could you write here what the magic was incase someone else has the same problem? That would be great.

    Best Michel



  • Just to give every body another point to think about (without getting into this specific case to much). I often recognized a high load with certain combinations of codecs and original files frame rate and a different monitors frame rate, which wasn't a multitude of the originals files. I just saw the difference here (original frame rate 25frames vs Monitor 60hz.) These differences require a lot of frame recalculations which results in a high load often, which isn't spiking immediately, but fast over a short time. I couldn't find any exact reasons/combinations yet, as it sometimes is more of an issue then in other situations. but probably this is proportionally higher with higher resolutions. Telling Isadora to render the 25 frames fixed without recalculating often isn't helping at all, even if the load is fine again.
    In this case, I guess the frame recalculation is done somehow differently by the system (different algorithm?), which is more effective. But even then, there still might be some recognizable stutter. Depending on the footage (especially horizontal movement) seem to stutter because of the extra frames which are put in between to fit the 25 to 60 frame recalculation.
    I have seen this last issue a lot in different software players beside Isadora, like QLab and Watchout as well. The interesting part here is, that this issue was differently pronounced.
    It seems, the way of recalculation is done differently in every software. Plain movie player like Quicktime, Windows MoviePlayer and VLC doesn't seem to have this issue at all, using a different algorithm, maybe.

    What ever, to avoid this issues in general, one should try it's best to match the frame rates in all over the supply chain. From camera recording to monitor/projector settings (Even the lighting conditions could be of matter, but this is a different story ;-) ).

    Best
    Dill


  • Tech Staff

    @michel said:

    Could you write here what the magic was incase someone else has the same problem? That would be great.

     Once I clean up my Applescripts and get a readme together, I'll be putting them on the Plugins Page.

    I also need to change my AppleScripts to add dialogs allowing you to choose which file/script to launch (and then write that choice to a text file) so that they're usable, with some modifications, for others in different situations, without having to change my scripts that much.



  • @michel it was a simple but complicated situation to describe, but something like this:

    Room 1: Led wall 1024x1024px, one quicktime loop

    Problem: The menubar/mouse pointer remains on show stages, 

    Solution: hide menus in sys prefs fixed the menu, but not the mousepointer but @woland fixed it with applescript


    Room 2: 1 mac mini to play two monitors fullscreen. 

    Problem: Performance, described in detail in the posts above. A lot of permission issues with Mojave that made simple script solutions hard

    Solution: Quicktime player and applescript

    The script involves opening the clips, moving them to their respective screens, setting them to loop and finally play them both. Plus moving the mouse pointer out of the corner where it defaults on reboot and blocks the play controls from fading out.