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    How to keep blobs apart in Eyes++ ?

    How To... ?
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    • Woland
      Woland Tech Staff @LTony last edited by

      @Skulpture ?

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      • Juriaan
        Juriaan Tech Staff last edited by

        So this is a common error with Motion Tracking, basically what you have to do is have more data to keep the dancers apart. You can do this on multiple ways :

        - Give them a proper ID, in your situation you can do this by using Blinking IR leds that are blinking in a different frequency from each other. That way you can find out what the ID of the performer is.


        With the more expensive motion tracking systems (Blacktracks, Optitrack) you use a system where each single tracker is unique with a multi camera system that tells you exactly where your performer is in the 3D space.

        Isadora 3.1.1, Dell XPS 17 9710, Windows 10
        Interactive Performance Designer, Freelance Artist, Scenographer, Lighting Designer, TroikaTronix Community moderator
        Always in for chatting about interaction in space / performance design. Drop me an email at hello@juriaan.me

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • Michel
          Michel Izzy Guru @LTony last edited by

          @ltony

          Can you send a screenshot of your eyes++ settings?

          Best Michel

          Michel Weber | www.filmprojekt.ch | rMBP (2019) i9, 16gig, AMD 5500M 8 GB, OS X 10.15 | located in Winterthur Switzerland.

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • bonemap
            bonemap Izzy Guru @LTony last edited by bonemap

            @ltony

            Hi,

            I share your pain with this issue! I have a blob tracking project that I am working on that is giving me the same sort of grief... following is a screen capture of the settings I am currently trying in Eyes++ module tracking two blob objects and another tracking 16. It would be good to get a response from Isadora about the 'lifespan' property and if the module is actually functioning correctly.

            http://recordit.co/YjSpc9a4lR

            http://recordit.co/y9jocqiXRr

            best wishes

            Russell

            http://bonemap.com | Australia
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            DusX Skulpture 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • DusX
              DusX Tech Staff @bonemap last edited by DusX

              @bonemap

              1 solution for your setup, since your blobs have unique colors it to use Chromo Key to separate each color into a separate video stream (or if you are generating these blobs, don't mix them).

              Then use a Blobs actor for each of the video streams. This will track each completely independently, however; it will also increase your CPU usage, so I recommend using the lowest reasonable video resolution for the blob tracking.

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              bonemap 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • dbini
                dbini last edited by

                its possible to get IR LEDs that transmit different frequencies, and IR filters that match these frequencies, so with 2 cameras, each of your performers could have a dedicated video feed and no mixups. (needs more equipment and twice as much work to calibrate the cameras though....)

                John Collingswood
                taikabox.com
                2019 MBPT 2.6GHZ i7 OSX15.3.2 16GB
                plus an old iMac and assorted Mac Minis for installations

                bonemap 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                • bonemap
                  bonemap Izzy Guru @dbini last edited by bonemap

                  @dbini said:

                  IR LEDs that transmit different frequencies, and IR filters that match these frequencies, so with 2 cameras,

                   Hi John,

                  Do you have any idea of the cost of a single performer Black Trax system? If Black Trax is proposed to be integrated into Isadora it would good to know what the costs are for one of their simple systems.

                  http://bonemap.com | Australia
                  Izzy STD 4.2 | USB 3.6 | + Beta
                  MBP 16” 2019 2.4 GHz Intel i9 64GB AMD Radeon Pro 5500 8 GB 4TB SSD | 14.5 Sonoma
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                  dbini 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • bonemap
                    bonemap Izzy Guru @DusX last edited by

                    @dusx said:

                    since you blobs have unique colors it to use Chromo Key

                    Hi Ryan,

                    I like where you are going with that, but I will be using a thermal camera so that there is no conflict with stage lighting. The FLIR camera I have doesn't see color at all only heat (hopefully only body heat). 

                    The Eyes++ calibration is very tricky... one thing that is a bit baffling is that you have a property called 'lifespan' but when it is incremented higher towards 100% the tracking appears to be unpredictable or stops functioning all together, where you would think it would become more persistent. It appears to require very nuanced parameter settings and that is hard to maintain in changing performance environments.

                    best wishes

                    Russell

                    http://bonemap.com | Australia
                    Izzy STD 4.2 | USB 3.6 | + Beta
                    MBP 16” 2019 2.4 GHz Intel i9 64GB AMD Radeon Pro 5500 8 GB 4TB SSD | 14.5 Sonoma
                    Mac Studio 2023 M2 Ultra 128GB | OSX 15.3 Sequoia
                    A range of deployable older Macs

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                    • dbini
                      dbini @bonemap last edited by

                      @bonemap

                      i don't know about Black Trax, I would probably try to build my own system out of bits and pieces salvaged from TV remotes and off of Ebay. If Black Trax gets integrated into Izzy then that's another level up, it would be worth investigating. I think they make custom systems depending how many points you want to track.

                      John Collingswood
                      taikabox.com
                      2019 MBPT 2.6GHZ i7 OSX15.3.2 16GB
                      plus an old iMac and assorted Mac Minis for installations

                      bonemap 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                      • bonemap
                        bonemap Izzy Guru @dbini last edited by

                        @dbini said:

                        I would probably try to build my own system out of bits and pieces salvaged from TV remotes and off of Ebay

                         If only I could be so clever, I think I am too dyslexic to do anything like that.

                        http://bonemap.com | Australia
                        Izzy STD 4.2 | USB 3.6 | + Beta
                        MBP 16” 2019 2.4 GHz Intel i9 64GB AMD Radeon Pro 5500 8 GB 4TB SSD | 14.5 Sonoma
                        Mac Studio 2023 M2 Ultra 128GB | OSX 15.3 Sequoia
                        A range of deployable older Macs

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                        • L
                          LTony last edited by

                          @bonemap 

                          You are right about the Eyes++ calibration being tricky.  The lifespan parameter seems to have a downside to it that it takes longer to detect the blob in the first place and then it looses the blob faster when it moves.  So for the moment I have this set very low (0-5).  'Same max dist' and 'same area chg' seem to do the trick in my case, at least they improve the response, but setting them to high will worsen the switchovers between blob ID's and it is almost impossible to find the sweet spot where response is the best.

                          Still experimenting at this, but it's improving...

                          @Juriaan 

                           I have thought about blinking led's, but I wouldn't know how to go about getting Isadora to see the difference.  So I guess that would take a separate system all together to make that work.  As far as Blacktracks, optitrack is concerned:  those are very expensive setups, even to rent, and even then would be difficult to implement for what I'm trying to do here...

                          Maybe I should mention my human blobs are about 6 m off the ground and constantly moving both in height and in horizontal/vertical axis seen by the camera  :-)

                           

                          Isadora 2.6.1 on Win10 Pro PC, Intel Core i7-4800MQ @ 2.70Ghz, 16GB ram, NVIDIA Quadro K3100M

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                          • Skulpture
                            Skulpture Izzy Guru @bonemap last edited by

                            @bonemap said:

                            It would be good to get a response from Isadora about the 'lifespan' property and if the module is actually functioning correctly.

                             Lifespan as I understand it works when an objects disappears from view but Isadora tries to semi-predict the movement so it can pick it back up a few moments later. SO if a person moves behind a pillar or post for example. 

                            Graham Thorne | www.grahamthorne.co.uk
                            RIG 1: Custom-built PC: Windows 11. Ryzen 7 7700X, RTX3080, 32G DDR5 RAM. 2 x m.2.
                            RIG 2: Laptop Dell G15: Windows 11, Intel i9 12th Gen. RTX3070ti, 16G RAM (DDR5), 2 x NVME M.2 SSD.
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                            • Skulpture
                              Skulpture Izzy Guru last edited by

                              Ah, Yes this old chestnut.

                              Motion tracking more than one person is very tricky. As amazing as eyes and eyes ++ is to get very good results I have often had to change the physical movement (dancer, actor, etc) which is not always ideal. Isadora does a very good job for its price point and indeed Blacktrax is another level; price and functionality!

                              Graham Thorne | www.grahamthorne.co.uk
                              RIG 1: Custom-built PC: Windows 11. Ryzen 7 7700X, RTX3080, 32G DDR5 RAM. 2 x m.2.
                              RIG 2: Laptop Dell G15: Windows 11, Intel i9 12th Gen. RTX3070ti, 16G RAM (DDR5), 2 x NVME M.2 SSD.
                              RIG 3: Apple Laptop: rMBP i7, 8gig RAM 256 SSD, HD, OS X 10.12.12

                              bonemap 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • bonemap
                                bonemap Izzy Guru @Skulpture last edited by

                                @skulpture said:

                                Blacktrax is another level; price and functionality

                                 There is no mention of price points on their website, do you have any idea of a ball-park cost for any of their systems?

                                http://bonemap.com | Australia
                                Izzy STD 4.2 | USB 3.6 | + Beta
                                MBP 16” 2019 2.4 GHz Intel i9 64GB AMD Radeon Pro 5500 8 GB 4TB SSD | 14.5 Sonoma
                                Mac Studio 2023 M2 Ultra 128GB | OSX 15.3 Sequoia
                                A range of deployable older Macs

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                                • Skulpture
                                  Skulpture Izzy Guru last edited by

                                  To buy outright you are looking at around $60,000 I'd say. Luckily I have a student (soon to be graduate) who owns a system and their office is onsite. 

                                  Graham Thorne | www.grahamthorne.co.uk
                                  RIG 1: Custom-built PC: Windows 11. Ryzen 7 7700X, RTX3080, 32G DDR5 RAM. 2 x m.2.
                                  RIG 2: Laptop Dell G15: Windows 11, Intel i9 12th Gen. RTX3070ti, 16G RAM (DDR5), 2 x NVME M.2 SSD.
                                  RIG 3: Apple Laptop: rMBP i7, 8gig RAM 256 SSD, HD, OS X 10.12.12

                                  bonemap 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                  • bonemap
                                    bonemap Izzy Guru @Skulpture last edited by

                                    @skulpture said:

                                    around $60,000

                                     Well the system tracks in 3D with six degrees of freedom... That's a lot more sophisticated than 2d XY tracking of Eyes & Blobs. I wonder if there is a less expensive entry point after all it is not full motion skeleton tracking. 

                                    http://bonemap.com | Australia
                                    Izzy STD 4.2 | USB 3.6 | + Beta
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                                    • bonemap
                                      bonemap Izzy Guru @Skulpture last edited by

                                      @skulpture said:

                                      outright you are looking at around $60,000

                                      I put an enquiry through to Black Trax about a system to track a dancer in one of my scrim projection rigs (4 x 4 x 6m) the estimate came in at US$72,000. That would take some serious fund raising to achieve. Some alternatives were offered: a preloved system or a system from a rental partner, but I would have to dig a bit deeper to get a price on those options.

                                      @dbini John's suggestion of making his own system sounds more feasible at that price tag.

                                      best wishes

                                      http://bonemap.com | Australia
                                      Izzy STD 4.2 | USB 3.6 | + Beta
                                      MBP 16” 2019 2.4 GHz Intel i9 64GB AMD Radeon Pro 5500 8 GB 4TB SSD | 14.5 Sonoma
                                      Mac Studio 2023 M2 Ultra 128GB | OSX 15.3 Sequoia
                                      A range of deployable older Macs

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