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    IR camera (for interaction)

    Interfacing
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    • em_tx
      em_tx last edited by

      Hey all,

      I am slowly developing my performance for December, where I would like to build with my colleagues mixture of tracked and interactive content which is partially life generated. As I perform work in progresses, I came to point that I would need to build up very light tech.pool to be able to carry with me. As stage sizes are in general 10x10m I would love to cover this space, in worst case at least part of it.

      There is obviously Kinect, which does not have big reach and than IR camera solutions and I would need something fairly cheap.

      So does anybody have suggestions or experiences to share:

      -Surveillance camera with IR light, stable framerate

      -DSLR/M43 with IR filter as IR camera (+IR light source)

      -BMPCC (not cheap but I have one) with IR filter (+IR light source)

      I am very interested in Surveillance cameras, but I have no idea how they do with stage, stage lighting (IR pollution) etc.

      Thanks for thoughts and sharing experiences.
      Cheers!

      MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
      Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
      Lenovo x230 i5 Pro, 16GB Ram, M.2 ntel 512 GB, Intel UHD, Ubuntu Nomble Numbat 24.04

      Isadora 3

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      • M
        mikemixed last edited by

        I had very good experience with SPECO waterproof IR B&W camera with 60' hardwire cable - they also come with 120' i think. that's been upgraded to CVC620WPH (higher rez + color) http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1159190-REG/speco_technologies_cvc620wph_960h_waterproof_color_camera.html. *NB you have to buy the powersupply separately, it's necessary but not included in purchase.

        B&H have a lot of reasonably priced SPECO cameras.

        Re the early version I have - it was used handheld, live, for a scene in the dark and for a closeup underwater monolog.  it works at a distance but of course the fisheye effect will be more obvious the further you you are from the subject. it definitely took a beating, later i wrapped some foam around and let a bunch of 8 year-olds loose with it and it's fine.

        Mid-2014 2.8 macbook pro/16 gigs Ram on OS 10.10.5, Late-2013 iMac 3.5/16 gigs Ram on OS 10.9.5, Mid-2010 2.4 macbook pro/4 gigs Ram on 10.6.8, all in use with Isadora 2.1

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        • M
          mikemixed last edited by

          Here's the one i used - doesn't look like the new one have IR capability
          http://www.amazon.com/SPECO-CVC-320WP-Waterproof-Bullet-60-foot/dp/B0002EXKBU

          Mid-2014 2.8 macbook pro/16 gigs Ram on OS 10.10.5, Late-2013 iMac 3.5/16 gigs Ram on OS 10.9.5, Mid-2010 2.4 macbook pro/4 gigs Ram on 10.6.8, all in use with Isadora 2.1

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          • Fred
            Fred last edited by

            Use a surveillance camera with SDI out and a black magic capture box, I have linked many times on this forum to such cameras if you search, You will need to get a IR pass filter, the DSLRs and the BMPCC have an IR block filter built in, you would need to open and modify these cameras to use them for IR tracking, all normal cameras block the IR light from the sensor to get normal photographs. What you want to do is the opposite, block all visible or non-ir light from the camera (and make sure it does not have an IR block filter in it. Mid west optics make high quality IR pass filters.

            Something like this camera, there are many variations I chose this at random it is not the one I use, read the specs carefully for output forms etc.
            I carry a kit like this a lot, a security camera, manfrotto magic arm, long SDI cable, SDi capture box, it will all fit in a small bag. You can find alternate lenses very easy (the security cameras use C-mount) you are best to get one with manual zoom, focus and aperture, depending on the height of the ceiling a 3.8mm lense should be OK, but this is easy to calculate.
            The trick with IR tracking is contrast, reflective floors, dark floors with dark clothes, and shadows will all mess it up. You will need to be careful about lighting and camera settings. Bring IR floods but you can also block visible light from stage lights with red green and blue filters all at once.
            Again there is a lot of good info already on the forum, a good search and read will give you more than enough info.

            http://www.fredrodrigues.net/
            https://github.com/fred-dev
            OSX 13.6.4 (22G513) MBP 2019 16" 2.3 GHz 8-Core i9, Radeon Pro 5500M 8 GB, 32g RAM
            Windows 10 7700K, GTX 1080ti, 32g RAM, 2tb raided SSD

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            • em_tx
              em_tx last edited by

              Hi @Fred and @Mikemixed,

              thanks a lot. Fred, your option looks great. Something like this I am looking for. I am not really gifted from technic standpoint of view, so I really look for simply answers. I looked at the surveillance cameras and its little beyond me.
              I understand lighting on stage very well, including LED lighting options I just do not get how strong IR source I need as well as which cameras is cheap and works well  for a stage which is cca 10x10.

              Mike, cameras you send looks great - just I am based in Austria.

              But thanks a lot both of you.
              Cheers.

              MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
              Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
              Lenovo x230 i5 Pro, 16GB Ram, M.2 ntel 512 GB, Intel UHD, Ubuntu Nomble Numbat 24.04

              Isadora 3

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              • dbini
                dbini last edited by

                If you are coming from a stage lighting background, you can adapt Fred's CCTV camera solution quite easily and cheaply. I've toured shows with this setup using a projector and camera in the grid and a white floor, and it works fine, although not high definition: get an old b/w cctv camera with analogue out and a wide angle lens. unscrew the lens, cut small discs out of primary red, blue and a dark green lighting gel and insert them between the lens and the chip.

                run a bnc cable from the camera down to a Canopus or Dazzle capture card.
                on stage, in each corner, place a fresnel or wide profile on a low stand. focus these so they're not spilling on the floor and then add the combined red/green/blue filters. (its good to max this channel at 40% because its going to get superhot if you leave it up at full and the filters will burn out in minutes)
                Then you can use the projector as a light source and Isadora will see the performers but not the projection.

                John Collingswood
                taikabox.com
                2019 MBPT 2.6GHZ i7 OSX15.3.2 16GB
                plus an old iMac and assorted Mac Minis for installations

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                • em_tx
                  em_tx last edited by

                  @Fred

                  Thanks a lot. So I progressed - I have white/light gray floor in the black frame on the floor and blacked-out space, unidirectional LED stage lighting, projectors from (more or less top).

                  Do you think this camera would do the trick?
                  http://www.ebay.at/itm/Bosch-Dinion-LTC-0385-10-analog-monochrome-camera-with-movement-detector-CCTV-/122069991627?hash=item1c6bf040cb:g:gO0AAOSwMmBVsJ5c

                  Thanks  a lot.

                  Tomas

                  MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
                  Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
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                  • Fred
                    Fred last edited by

                    composite only, no controls to adjust the image....looks a bit dodgy

                    http://www.ebay.at/itm/2-Megapixel-Full-1920x1080p-HD-SDI-Sony-CMOS-Box-Weatherproof-Camera-Exmor-/181108186791?hash=item2a2ae39ea7:g:8Z4AAOxyOeBRyyeA

                    http://www.fredrodrigues.net/
                    https://github.com/fred-dev
                    OSX 13.6.4 (22G513) MBP 2019 16" 2.3 GHz 8-Core i9, Radeon Pro 5500M 8 GB, 32g RAM
                    Windows 10 7700K, GTX 1080ti, 32g RAM, 2tb raided SSD

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                    • em_tx
                      em_tx last edited by

                      Thanks a lot @Fred, but also to all of you.

                      I am have to shop after all the talks, anybody if you can share your thoughts.

                      1x camera: http://www.ebay.at/itm/2-Megapixel-Full-1920x1080p-HD-SDI-Sony-CMOS-Box-Weatherproof-Camera-Exmor-/181108186791?hash=item2a2ae39ea7:g:8Z4AAOxyOeBRyyeA

                      2x supercplamp:  http://www.ebay.at/itm/Manfrotto-Magic-Arm-Kit-143-Superclamp-Bodenstativ-/231126817360?hash=item35d03b5a50:m:mwOepVSdOSjyi3MAiNMEspA

                      1x IR light: which I am not sure but I am looking at following options
                      http://www.ebay.at/itm/Wetterfest-80M-CCTV-Kamera-IR-Illuminator-Infrarot-Lampe-Nachtsicht-/171760903274?hash=item27fdbf646a:g:Vo8AAOxy0aBRqKxa

                      http://www.ebay.at/itm/48-LED-Illuminator-IR-Infrarot-Nachtsicht-Licht-Lampe-fuer-Sicherheit-CCTV-DE-/282106184900?hash=item41aed6c4c4:g:Zn0AAOSwMsVXjjg~

                      http://www.ebay.at/itm/12V-96-LED-Night-Vision-IR-Infrared-Illuminator-Light-Lamp-for-CCTV-Camera-VR-/161946482314?hash=item25b4c3368a:g:yxIAAOSwaA5Wl0qW

                      http://www.ebay.at/itm/96-LED-12V-Night-Vision-IR-Infrared-Illuminator-Light-Lamp-for-CCTV-Camera-ES-/322075668117?hash=item4afd34ae95:g:7XkAAOSwv~xXEOu1

                      http://www.ebay.at/itm/328ft-15LED-12V-Nachtsicht-IR-Infrarot-Licht-Lampe-Strahler-Scheinwerfer-f-CCTV-/141998012730?hash=item210fbdb93a:g:~BMAAOSwdWBXPY78

                      BM SDI to HDMI (in) capture box  - which I am also not so secure:

                      https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/microconverters

                      and of course 20/30m SDI cable, which is the easiest part.

                      As always very, very big thanks to all what you spend your time to help!!!!

                      MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
                      Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
                      Lenovo x230 i5 Pro, 16GB Ram, M.2 ntel 512 GB, Intel UHD, Ubuntu Nomble Numbat 24.04

                      Isadora 3

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                      • dbini
                        dbini last edited by

                        looking at your shopping list - the camera looks good - with the right lens.

                        Manfrotto magic arms are pretty much essential.
                        In my experience, all those IR illuminators have a very narrow beam, with no way to control the spill. it will probably be much easier to use theatre lighting and filter out the visible light.
                        That blackmagic box won't capture, it just converts. [this](https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/892453-REG/Blackmagic_Design_bdlkulsdzminrec_Ultrastudio_Mini_Recorder.html) is the one you need if you have a spare thunderbolt port.
                        john

                        John Collingswood
                        taikabox.com
                        2019 MBPT 2.6GHZ i7 OSX15.3.2 16GB
                        plus an old iMac and assorted Mac Minis for installations

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                        • em_tx
                          em_tx last edited by

                          John

                          Thank you very much! You spared me some hassle.

                          True about the spill. I am searching also something for rehearsals and tests.

                          Talking about this, I am bit worried about the filters as this will be prone to failure (I have already one place where its gonna be discussions with fixtures) - did you try to experiment to put IR light into the normal profile?
                          http://www.ebay.at/itm/Philips-Infrarot-Infrarotlampe-E27-150-Watt-R125-IR-R-230V-ES-Leuchtmittel-Birne-/351324645142?hash=item51cc94a716:g:PDQAAOSwPYZU7EkK

                          Tomas

                          MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
                          Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
                          Lenovo x230 i5 Pro, 16GB Ram, M.2 ntel 512 GB, Intel UHD, Ubuntu Nomble Numbat 24.04

                          Isadora 3

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                          • dbini
                            dbini last edited by

                            profiles use specific halogen bulbs. that Philips IR bulb is probably designed for therapeutic heat lamps, so not a good idea. you can get 1mm thick acrylic IR pass filters, but they're quite expensive.

                            John Collingswood
                            taikabox.com
                            2019 MBPT 2.6GHZ i7 OSX15.3.2 16GB
                            plus an old iMac and assorted Mac Minis for installations

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                            • em_tx
                              em_tx last edited by

                              @ I see...Hmmmm I thougt so. There is no workaround.

                              One last stupid question - auto iris on CCTV - is it good idea? Or eventually filter makes things so dark, that IRIS goes wide open either - way?

                              I got offered lens, with auto iris and build in IR system. I have no idea how effective is IR for theatre purposes and how will behave auto-iris.

                              Thanks a lot in advance.

                              http://www.photosavings.com/tamron-12vg1040asir-12-10-40mm-f14-infrared-dc-iris-lens-c-mount-vari-focal

                              http://www.ebay.at/itm/New-Tamron-12VG1040ASIR-SQ-1-2-10-40mm-F-1-4-C-Mount-DC-Auto-Iris-CCTV-Lens-/142123927527?hash=item21173f07e7:g:6esAAOSwLF1X4XQX

                              MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
                              Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
                              Lenovo x230 i5 Pro, 16GB Ram, M.2 ntel 512 GB, Intel UHD, Ubuntu Nomble Numbat 24.04

                              Isadora 3

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                              • Fred
                                Fred last edited by

                                Dont get auto iris, for tracking you want fixed manual settings

                                http://www.fredrodrigues.net/
                                https://github.com/fred-dev
                                OSX 13.6.4 (22G513) MBP 2019 16" 2.3 GHz 8-Core i9, Radeon Pro 5500M 8 GB, 32g RAM
                                Windows 10 7700K, GTX 1080ti, 32g RAM, 2tb raided SSD

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                                • em_tx
                                  em_tx last edited by

                                  Thank you @ Fred.

                                  I realized, that camera as 1/2.8 sensor with C mount  and the widest think I so far found as zoom lens, in order to save myself a pain is  3,5 - 8,0 mm but its designed for 1/3 sensors. Do you think it will work even with this small difference, or there will be some trap in tracking at the corners?

                                  The whole thing is bit fiddly to get it right on first time.

                                  I was hoping for something wider going all the way to 12mm.

                                  http://www.ebay.at/itm/CCTV-LENS-3-5-8-0mm-F1-4-/131618869930?hash=item1ea51892aa:g:Co8AAOSwdzVXi7t7

                                  I feel like to send everyone who helps me a bottle whisky

                                  MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
                                  Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
                                  Lenovo x230 i5 Pro, 16GB Ram, M.2 ntel 512 GB, Intel UHD, Ubuntu Nomble Numbat 24.04

                                  Isadora 3

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                                  • em_tx
                                    em_tx last edited by

                                    This would be another option:
                                    http://www.ebay.at/itm/Tamron-M12VM412-Varifocal-Manual-Iris-CCTV-Lens-4-12mm-For-C-Mount-Cameras-/291872406011?hash=item43f4f379fb:g:GKwAAOSw9IpX1t-6

                                    MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
                                    Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
                                    Lenovo x230 i5 Pro, 16GB Ram, M.2 ntel 512 GB, Intel UHD, Ubuntu Nomble Numbat 24.04

                                    Isadora 3

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                                    • em_tx
                                      em_tx last edited by

                                      And sorry - one more question. There are these IR corrected lenses for brighter images. Is this something which is good or rather contraproductive with IR tracking?

                                      I found also this one:  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/414195-REG/Tamron_12VM412ASIR_12VM412ASIR_1_2_4_12_F_1_2.html

                                      If I managed the whole system, maybe I will post somewehre info for the lowcost IR system, so people after me dont have to go through this research and its easier for them.

                                      MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
                                      Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
                                      Lenovo x230 i5 Pro, 16GB Ram, M.2 ntel 512 GB, Intel UHD, Ubuntu Nomble Numbat 24.04

                                      Isadora 3

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                                      • Fred
                                        Fred last edited by

                                        For tracking I get lenses here often

                                        http://www.surveilzone.com/cctv-lens/cs-mount-lens there is a lot of cheap options so it is not expensive to carry around a lot of different lenses.
                                        "I was hoping for something wider going all the way to 12mm." 3,5 mm is much wider than 12mm, I dont understand what you mean.
                                        I dont think these lenses are IR corrected, some lenses have a filter to block more IR and flare, these dont, always get the IR capable lenses to IR.
                                        Until you need perfect matching lenses, reliable repeatable distortion, matching back focus or other features just stick with the cheap ones, I never saw any huge advantage, the quality is better on the more expensive ones, but if you are worried about getting the right one, buy a few cheap ones(and doubles of them) instead.

                                        http://www.fredrodrigues.net/
                                        https://github.com/fred-dev
                                        OSX 13.6.4 (22G513) MBP 2019 16" 2.3 GHz 8-Core i9, Radeon Pro 5500M 8 GB, 32g RAM
                                        Windows 10 7700K, GTX 1080ti, 32g RAM, 2tb raided SSD

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                                        • em_tx
                                          em_tx last edited by

                                          @ Fred. Thank you. I need C mount, but its ok.
                                          I generally try to create small, flexible set ups, so I try to avoid buying too much stuff.

                                          I mean from 3,5  all the way to 12 mm. I need to be very wide I guess, but in theatre it can change.
                                          I suspect, that with the consideation sensor size it will be at least 10,5 - 36mm and less I need to go wider, which I am not sure is possible, that should suffice once for all.

                                          If I got right, IR coating enhances IR light in terms of visibility and contrast, so that would be nice benefit.

                                          I am not sure how I can use back focus effectively for tracking.  Having focused everything on furthest place and use the fact that lens is so wide that everything is somehow in focus?

                                          MacBook Pro 14 Max 1, 10core CPU, 32core GPU, 64GB Ram, 1TB HDD, Ventura OS
                                          Dell G5 5587, i7 8750 H @ 2.20, NVMe Intel 512 GB, 2TB HDD, NVidia GTX 1060 6GB MaxQ, RAM 32GB, Win 10
                                          Lenovo x230 i5 Pro, 16GB Ram, M.2 ntel 512 GB, Intel UHD, Ubuntu Nomble Numbat 24.04

                                          Isadora 3

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