[LOGGED] Timecode + Markers

mark_m

Of the new features announced at the Werkstatt the one that excited me most was Timecode for video in the movie player, so that one can read (and presumably trigger events) by timecode rather than by percentage of video played.

I'm not clear exactly on how Isadora will measure timecode, hopefully with the SMTPE standard hh:mm:ss:ff.

I would like to additionally request that Isadora events/actors could be triggered by embedded markers in video and audio files.
To enlarge on that: in many video and audio editing programs one can add markers to the video / audio when exporting the files. These markers are usually embedded in the file.

Here's an example of a 5 second video with three markers in it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hps7cpz2ve33al/izzy_feature_request.mp4?dl=0

(this video was made in Adobe Premiere)

I would ask that Isadora can read these markers and use them to trigger an event.

In this instance the markers are all named. It would be wonderful if there was a "trigger by marker" actor that read the video file, read the markers in it, and let you trigger an event by named marker based on a dropdown list of the named markers in the video file.

So in this case the markers are called Blue, Yellow and Light. So in my fantasy "trigger by marker" actor I could choose to trigger one event when the video reaches "blue" another at "yellow" and a third at "light". One could choose to ignore particular markers. If the markers weren't named then the actor would simply give them a sequential number, or give them the name of their SMTPE position.

Thanks a lot!

Mark

bonemap

Hi @mark_m

I like your idea here. Do you think there is a standard for video markers — across software developers say, Adobe Premiere, Apple Final Cut, Avid and Blackmagic DaVinci Resolve? I am also interested to see what this implementation is going to look and behave like, I got the impression from Mark's keynote that it might be timeline based as we see in Dataton's Watchout for example. Just have to wait and see!

Cheers

bonemap

crystalhorizon

Sounds very useful

DusX

I think to be considered we will need to see if there is a standard for these things.

Definitely could be useful.

mark_m

A quick word with my friends at Adobe suggests that markers are embedded in the XMP info in the file header, and are a 'standard'. I'll have a play with opening that example file in FCP and Resolve and see if those programs read the markers. Meanwhile here's a page about the XMP: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/xmp.html

mark_m

Using EXIFtool:

XMP info easily extracted and the markers are clearly read and show as follows:

Tracks Track Name : Markers

Tracks Frame Rate : f25

Tracks Markers Start Time : 45, 75, 100

Tracks Markers Name : blue, yellow, light

Tracks Markers Type : Comment, Comment, Comment

Tracks Markers Cue Point Params Key: marker_guid, marker_guid, marker_guid

Tracks Markers Cue Point Params Value: 42f744a8-1685-6a80-6548-729f00000024, 564c4da8-962e-ce3c-0701-cd0100000024, cd90ac2d-d593-35dd-049c-671400000024

Tracks Markers Guid : cd90ac2d-d593-35dd-049c-671400000024

So the position of the markers is shown as the frame number, and the position (in hh.mm.ss.ff) is calculated from the frame rate. (The markers are at 00:00:01:20, 00:00:03:00 and 00:00:04:00)

Full XMP info from the file is here

So you can see all the info contained in the file header.

And here's what the XMP looks like if I export it from Premiere as FCP compatible XML. Again, the markers are clearly defined as part of the XML.

Would Isadora have to be reading the XMP info anyhow, just in order to know the other video parameters like frame rate, frame size, duration, etc? In which case would this be straighforwards? Since Isadora would just looking for a couple more lines of XMP data.

Anyhow, I've planted this seed, given it a bit of water and compost, and hope it falls on fertile ground :-)

Kathmandale

I would love this.

Recently I've been having to do video in QLab for a few people who've insisted on it. Generally I'm not a fan of it's video side but one neat feature is how it interprets 'markers' embedded in footage. A good example is being able to start a video, loop a section, then play the end. Obviously this is possible in Issy but it's nice to be able to just add the 'markers' in premier if you're lazy like me!

mark_m

I just wanted to bump this up, and to say that I hope that Timecode for Video in the Movie Player - as announced at the 2016 Werkstatt Keynote speech - is still on the road map.
Just been making a piece where I had to make a lot of use of percentage to time calculations, and Timecode would have been a huge time saver.
Just asking. As well as the markers ;-)

Fred

@mark_m +1 for me also for timecode and markers

mark_m

Just bumping this feature request up for attention, seeing as how it's been recently requested by someone else :-)

barneybroomer

Once upon a time.....when QuickTime was still the bomb, you could embed text, midi, multichannel audio and timecode to a single QuickTime movie. From QuickTime 5 this was ditched and up until now there has never been a file format that was that close to all-in-one format that could be made with a broad range of editors. You could edit audio and video and midi in Protools or another DAW, and export the whole thing to one QT file. In the QT player you could add different audio outputs and midi out to a external midi I/O or patch internal. Did many show like that always rock solid. I discussed the last 15 years with Mark several time this approach, but due to constant change in Quicktime it was not possible this way anymore.

Zap, many years later I had to do a large showontrol setup for a show in Rotterdam, but was not able to use timecode, since all tracks that were played there were coming from a DJ setup and give him the freedom to mix it like they always do, so also change in pitch. So in that time we used DVJ's and I added in the bottom of the video several stripes with optical markers for pyro, laser, lights and commands for boats. So the markers were setup up as a binary coded stripe and you could add numbers for playlists and everything. The video was played out by the DVJ's, and we got rid of the info stripe at the bottom before we ended out to all projectors. The software in that time (I'm talking about 13 years ago) was also Isadora and I used it to decode the optical markers. I did not use colors but used "placement" tabs, black for zero's and white for ones and sended out the corresponding midi triggers to all equipment. Was a hell of a job back then and can't remember what actors I used to measure the optical triggers, there was a reason why I used black and white instead of colours. Any how, the whole setup of the show including the setup of all triggers was done in Final Cut Pro.

So when you use timecode, this works great with a non-pitched video, but when using a bunch of starts and stops, variable pitch, optical markers are a great tool. in Isadora you could make a tool that generates a optical marker with a certain midi pitch in to make the setup proces quicker instead of hanging 6 A4 on your wall to doublecheck if that one optical marker is the right one hahaha

mark_m

@mark_m

Just bumping up this request for old times' sake! Gets quite a few +1s, shouldn't be hard to program (all the data's in the XMP). Easier than IzzyCast, I'll bet :-)

Notdoc

@mark_m

strongly agree...

mark_m

Just bumping up this feature request from eight years ago viz a viz another request for cuepoints posted in the forum...

https://community.troikatronix...

There's a broad consensus among our power users that this could be a useful feature. I am not a programmer, but I know that markers are embedded in the XML header of video files, use a common XML across popular NLEs, and can be read by EXIF readers. So it doesn't seem to me that it would be difficult to implement within Isadora.

Cheers

Mark (not that Mark, or it'd be done already :-) )

DusX

@mark_m said:

another request for cuepoints

Hi @mark_m

I have a solution that I should have useable soon, that reads the Markers via Python.

I am running it with your example file currently and its reading the markers as expected, but I wonder if you could provide any other test files? Maybe something made in Davinci with embedded XMP markers?
I don't have much experience with these markers.

jtsteph

@dusx DResolve allows you to export markers as a CSV file (Edit Index Panel>3 dot menu>Show Markers>All then Edit Index Panel>3 dot menu>Export Edit Index...you'll need to change the list view to show you the source in, marker keywords, and notes to see what you're doing)

It'll output a list like this:

#    Reel    Match    V    C    Dur    Source In    Source Out    Record Duration    Record In    Record Out    Name    Comments    Source Start    Source End    Source Duration    Codec    Source FPS    Resolution    Color    Notes    EDL Clip Name    Marker Keywords
1                C        13:42:20:20    13:42:20:21    00:00:00:01    13:42:20:20    13:42:20:21                            0        Blue    Marker 8        
2                C        13:42:22:12    13:42:22:13    00:00:00:01    13:42:22:12    13:42:22:13                            0        Blue    Marker 9        
3                C        13:42:24:16    13:42:43:18    00:00:19:02    13:42:24:16    13:42:43:18                            0        Blue    Marker 1        
4                C        13:42:35:06    13:42:35:07    00:00:00:01    13:42:35:06    13:42:35:07                            0        Blue    Marker 7        
5                C        13:42:47:16    13:42:54:03    00:00:06:11    13:42:47:16    13:42:54:03                            0        Blue    Marker 2        
6                C        13:42:55:18    13:43:09:13    00:00:13:19    13:42:55:18    13:43:09:13                            0        Blue    Marker 3        
7                C        13:43:25:16    13:43:31:06    00:00:05:14    13:43:25:16    13:43:31:06                            0        Blue    Marker 4        
8                C        13:43:35:06    13:43:57:11    00:00:22:05    13:43:35:06    13:43:57:11                            0        Blue    Marker 6

It would be quick work to parse these in the javascript actor or you could use python or sheets to format them to load into the data array actor..

There has to be something like this for Premiere, too. I know you can get them out of After Effects pretty easily.

-J

mark_m

@jtsteph

with all respect, exporting an EDL should be an unnecessary extra step, as all the marker info is contained in the XML header file of the video file itself.

@dusx

that’s great you have my Premiere file working! Fantastic!!

I will send you a Resolve version in the next couple days, unless @jsteph can send you one sooner?

cheers

(The other) Mark

DillTheKraut

@mark_m

I'm curious, as I did not know about these XML/XMP Headers in videofiles. As well I couldn't find to much of information about this topic. Could you elaborate, which file types does this support? And does this need specific export/render settings (e.g. in Adobe Premiere).

Maybe you can offer a link to more explanations.

Thank you
Delil

mark_m

@dillthekraut

Hiya,

I linked to this earlier in this thread, but it's now become a long thread so easy for things to get lost :-)

https://www.adobe.com/devnet/x...

and this in particular shows how it's embedded in files.

https://github.com/adobe/XMP-T...

It really does seem to be cross-app, not just Adobe specific.

I know, for example, that if I export a standard .mp4 (H264) file from Premiere, that has markers in the timeline, those markers appear when I re-import it in Premiere. So that's an .mp4 file with no XML sidecar file, meaning that all the info is in the header.