• Products
    • Isadora
    • Get It
    • ADD-ONS
    • IzzyCast
    • Get It
  • Forum
  • Help
  • Werkstatt
  • Newsletter
  • Impressum
  • Dsgvo
  • Press
  • Isadora
  • Get It
  • ADD-ONS
  • IzzyCast
  • Get It
  • Press
  • Dsgvo
  • Impressum

Navigation

    • Register
    • Login
    • Search
    • Categories
    • Recent
    • Popular
    • Tags

    [INFO] Why Don't the 3D Player and 3D Model Particles Offer Transparency?

    How To... ?
    5
    11
    1923
    Loading More Posts
    • Oldest to Newest
    • Newest to Oldest
    • Most Votes
    Reply
    • Reply as topic
    Log in to reply
    This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
    • Woland
      Woland Tech Staff @mark last edited by

      @mark

      Okay, but then why does this work?

      2020 - 3.0.7 - Fading 3D Objects.zip

      TroikaTronix Technical Support
      New Support Ticket: https://support.troikatronix.com/support/tickets/new
      Support Policy: https://support.troikatronix.com/support/solutions/articles/13000064762
      Add-Ons: https://troikatronix.com/add-ons/ & https://troikatronix.com/add-ons/?u=woland
      Professional Services: https://support.troikatronix.com/support/solutions/articles/13000109444

      | Isadora Version: all of them | Mac Pro (Late 2013), macOS 10.14.6, 3.5GHz 6-core, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, Dual AMD FirePro D700s |

      mark 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • mark
        mark @Woland last edited by mark

        @woland said:

        Okay, but then why does this work?

        Nice try. But unfortunately, in fact, it doesn't work. You just can't notice the problem in your example patch.

        Here's a much simplified version, where the first cube doesn't move and the second cube rotates 2.5 to +2.5 degrees along the y-axis. Instead of the transparency working as you expect, you can see the surfaces snap in front of each other.

        2020 - 3.0.7 - Fading 3D Objects - Faiilure Example.zip

        Best Wishes,
        Mark

        Media Artist & Creator of Isadora
        Macintosh SE-30, 32 Mb RAM, MacOS 7.6, Dual Floppy Drives

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • Woland
          Woland Tech Staff last edited by Woland

          @mark said:

          Here's a much simplified version, where the first cube doesn't move and the second cube rotates 2.5 to +2.5 degrees along the y-axis. Instead of the transparency working as you expect, you can see the surfaces snap in front of each other.

           😢

          Still, better than nothing I suppose.

          TroikaTronix Technical Support
          New Support Ticket: https://support.troikatronix.com/support/tickets/new
          Support Policy: https://support.troikatronix.com/support/solutions/articles/13000064762
          Add-Ons: https://troikatronix.com/add-ons/ & https://troikatronix.com/add-ons/?u=woland
          Professional Services: https://support.troikatronix.com/support/solutions/articles/13000109444

          | Isadora Version: all of them | Mac Pro (Late 2013), macOS 10.14.6, 3.5GHz 6-core, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, Dual AMD FirePro D700s |

          bonemap 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • bonemap
            bonemap Izzy Guru @Woland last edited by

            @woland

            transparency and depth sorting!



            http://bonemap.com | Australia
            Izzy STD 4.2 | USB 3.6 | + Beta
            MBP 16” 2019 2.4 GHz Intel i9 64GB AMD Radeon Pro 5500 8 GB 4TB SSD | 14.5 Sonoma
            Mac Studio 2023 M2 Ultra 128GB | OSX 15.3 Sequoia
            A range of deployable older Macs

            mark 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
            • mark
              mark @bonemap last edited by mark

              @bonemap

              Well, perhaps it looks fine which is great. Lucas' patch also seemed to be OK visually (though if you watched closely, you could see errors.)

              But I can tell you that your patch does not sort multiple models from multiple 3D Model Particle actors at the polygon level. You may be managing the individual models this way, but that doesn't deal with the polygons within the models. It is not a general solution.

              My simple example above proves this to be the case.

              Best Wishes,
              Mark

              Media Artist & Creator of Isadora
              Macintosh SE-30, 32 Mb RAM, MacOS 7.6, Dual Floppy Drives

              bonemap Fred 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • bonemap
                bonemap Izzy Guru @mark last edited by

                @mark

                Sometimes limitations become a catalyst for some kind of innovation. In this demonstration patch I am timing the change of the layer hierarchy to allow the 3D Model Players to move in front or behind. It represents a compromise, but in seeking to work through the challenge interesting and generative qualities emerge, where they would not if the path was easy.

                It is really nice to have your explanation as to why things are the way they are. It is very special!

                Best wishes

                Russell

                http://bonemap.com | Australia
                Izzy STD 4.2 | USB 3.6 | + Beta
                MBP 16” 2019 2.4 GHz Intel i9 64GB AMD Radeon Pro 5500 8 GB 4TB SSD | 14.5 Sonoma
                Mac Studio 2023 M2 Ultra 128GB | OSX 15.3 Sequoia
                A range of deployable older Macs

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • Fred
                  Fred @mark last edited by

                  @mark is it difficult to be able to feed the output of 3d actors into a glsl actor (not as a flat image but as a set of vertices)? Then using shaders this problem could have another chance at being solved without needing to change Isadora too much.

                  http://www.fredrodrigues.net/
                  https://github.com/fred-dev
                  OSX 13.6.4 (22G513) MBP 2019 16" 2.3 GHz 8-Core i9, Radeon Pro 5500M 8 GB, 32g RAM
                  Windows 10 7700K, GTX 1080ti, 32g RAM, 2tb raided SSD

                  mark 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • mark
                    mark @Fred last edited by mark

                    @fred said:

                    Then using shaders this problem could have another chance at being solved without needing to change Isadora too much.

                    From the conclusion of the paper I quoted above:

                    Neither of the two additional algorithms have the required qualities of a general transparency sorting algorithm and can only be used situational or for limited purposes. Instead the hope lies in the coming algorithms, such as hybrid transparency or adaptive transparency. But even with algorithms performing as well as the per object sorting and without the same distinct visual artifacts other kinds of algorithms will be used. Even if the algorithms only increase the speed in a special cases where the visual quality is not as important, since in real time 3D rendering speed is everything.

                    Also read this long reply to a similar question about the same problem in Unity.

                    Or this explanation of the topic from the Khronos group who maintain the OpenGL standard.

                    If you can find me code that will sort every polygon in the scene in real time, I'm love to see it. But it really is not a trivial problem to solve.

                    Best Wishes,
                    Mark

                    Media Artist & Creator of Isadora
                    Macintosh SE-30, 32 Mb RAM, MacOS 7.6, Dual Floppy Drives

                    Fred Armando 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Fred
                      Fred @mark last edited by

                      @mark Thanks, that was an interesting read and explains some other anomolies I have seen. I realise now the reason I was able to solve this with a shader is that I was only using 0 or full transparency when I did this.

                      It would be cool to be able to run shaders on 3d objects though..

                      http://www.fredrodrigues.net/
                      https://github.com/fred-dev
                      OSX 13.6.4 (22G513) MBP 2019 16" 2.3 GHz 8-Core i9, Radeon Pro 5500M 8 GB, 32g RAM
                      Windows 10 7700K, GTX 1080ti, 32g RAM, 2tb raided SSD

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Armando
                        Armando Beta Gold @mark last edited by

                        @mark Thank you al for the detailed explanation. I get why I just encountered this problem.


                        Again, a thousand thanks

                        Armando Menicacci
                        www.studiosit.ca
                        MacBook Pro 16-inch, 2021 Apple M1 Max, RAM 64 GB, 4TB SSD, Mac OS Sonoma 14.4.1 (23E224)

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • First post
                          Last post