Isadora 3 Pricing: Please Read and Respond

[GertjanB]

Hi

[Juriaan]

• What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

1. Marketing, really the marketing of Izzy is quite low. Do workshops on Art schools (or even make a network of trained artist that are allowed to do workshops with Izzy at a local level)

2. Community (portal) support for User actors. Really, we said it before, but a way to share our actors with each other so that we can expand the functionality of Isadora. For example, look at how Processing does this :) That way the community will enpower the product even more, causing a product that is never out of date.

3. A dedicated blog with talks with the artist that use Izzy, I really enjoy reading those at other blogs and I must say it helps to create exposure. 

4. Add more team members to the programming side of things, you lose a lot of customers because criticial features are missing (or that the two versions (mac and windows) aren't the same..)

• "Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

Why not both ? Max does this, and it quite a good model. Personally I like to have a pyshical USB key that works OFFLINE. The sub model requires you to be connected to the internet most of the time.

• What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

Ehh.. tough one.. 20 dollars/month and yearly something around (12 * 20 = 240 * 0.8) = 192 ~= 199 dollars ?

• What should the buy to own price for a new license be

400 dollars ? If a license for a major version only gets support for 2 years, then I think this price is fair. 

• Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

Like others already said, the support of Izzy is amazing. The forum is the first step (And we are generous..), if that doesn't work they will email you guys. Perhaps take a look at how TouchDesigner is doing this ?

• Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

I don't understand this question if you take Izzy and the feature set. What would be a Non-commercial version of Isadora (Limit the resolution output ?)

• If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

No. It should be working, period. Every single artist has his own equipment that they use.. The only use case that I see at the moment is buying it for long term installations or possible even rent it..

[anibalzorrilla]

@mark

The subscription seems an excellent proposal. For those of us who live and work in Latin America the prices of the licenses are unattainable for the majority of the possible users. We need a type of license or subscription as cheap as possible, although there are limitations in the functions. And I think there might be a free version, i.e. Isadora v1. I think that these possibilities would make the software more known and in the medium term it would be commercially beneficial. 

I hope that the price of the upgrade not be too expensive! And I am one of the *extraordinarily* frustrating Widows user (I am musician), I hope a solution for this.

[Maximortal]

Here my Ideas

• What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

As some one said Win an Osx mut be equivalent, but as i know is more or less something reached with v3. Also i think that the core feature of Isadora is the comunity and the forum. As from a long time we requested we need a repository where submit user actor. also if user actor are really complex or very nice may be you can think about pricing for that user generated actors (max for live an reason style)

• "Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

buy to own. Isadora is for me not only a working tool but also a way to research, play, have fun. If to have I have to pay some I'm afraid to lose this kind of feeling

• What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

this kind of subscriprion can be parallel to a buy to own option. 20€ month 100€ year, 150€ upgrade, 550 new license

• What should the buy to own price for a new license be

see up

• Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

this is important. As i say up comunity is the best. If I have to dream I do not want to have to pay for every thingh in this life. I know this can sound as off topic but society is made  a sum of singles. If with a premium support program we create two category we miss the point of our been artist: shape a brand new world! Of course dreams ar not real and Troikatroniks must survive and grow, but IMHO premium support  must be a real few part of that, something like:" i'm seriously in trouble, I call directly some one of the staff to be helped payng  fair amount (50€/hour)

• Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

student should have a quite fully functional version, may be limited to SD res or/with watermarks

• If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

hardware can be good for  touring with not my own company like: a company call me to create a show, I use isadora as my main tool but I can not tour with the show. I rent the hardware for the tour period , I program the show and I teach the technitians how to manage the show..this can be really interesting

[Fred]

• What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

Features and power, I tihnk it can tell its own story if Isadora can make more of a wow factor out of the box, I would aim specifically at making isadora come with some amazing examples things that people can already use to make things, big fleible multi layered user actors creating video efffects, systems etc. Thee old examples make the system look dated and uninspiring, although they do serve the purpose as a tutorial, out of the box other software starts up after the first install and you are instantly captivated by slick up to date output. This would help a lot, seeing from the demo what is possible, makes it very enticing. Also new features, catching up with some of the other frameworks- If isadora had an alpha section, like many softwares do with no gauranteed support but experienced users can take the risk, like adding VR support (it is pretty innevitable and it sucks to be late), or native kinect or better tracking, or openCV integration as alpha actors with no support but adding features that would help ISadora catch up to peoples desires and other frameworks. Isadora is very flexible, and hence looses its identity against its piers in the node based media framework game, resolume seems king of the VJ tools, Qlab seems to be king of theatre, Mad mapper millimum and D3 take out mapping and Touch designer is the top for innovative tools and new technology. Isadora is a bit jack of all trades master of none (in its visibility). this can change with some features and some marketing/presentation.

• "Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

Definately buy to own, personally I have sold every software I have owned that went to subscription and this will be my policy. I don't mind to pay for upgrades if there are new features but paying for the passing of time.....

• What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

See above

• What should the buy to own price for a new license be

If the features are good and updates and new technology are coming fast as well as keeping the core functionality error free then 5-700 euros is fine. 

• Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

If you think you can make money off premium support, but I dont think Isadora has the user base from that kind of market, IE I get it with D3, but there are very few people using Isadora in massive scale events that would pay top dollar for support contracts. And Isadoras track record is not good enough, to make this work a software has to have enough consectutive releases with so few bugs that the high level support is not going to be for bugs, it is for helping well to do clients in a pinch in critical situations.

• Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

Only if there is a difference in features

• If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

Personally no, but if you could offer something and the support needed to maintain it I think poeple would, but this goes way further than picking a good machine and badging it and without the user base that have the cash to throw around I dont know if Izzy could invest in the R and D needed to pull this off...

[bonemap]

@mark said:

I know what it means to struggle to survive as an artist. It remains crucial to me that any artist who wants to use Isadora has a means to get their hands on it. Isadora is obviously a commercial product, but my concern for artists and artmaking has always overshadowed concerns about making a profit.

 Hi team,

I would first like to comment on the specific statement in Mark's introduction because it suggests a sentiment that is really worth focusing on when we look at a business and pricing model. I think it also needs more clarification. To what extent does the social purpose of concern for artists overshadow making a profit? In my experience of engagement with the product, I can make the assumption that it is a VERY BIG concern that has shaped not only the developers relationship with a community but the kind of user that has been drawn to the product. Therefore, I wonder if it is worth looking at a Social Enterprise model for the Isadora business?

At a pinch, this might involve providing a true commercial value for the product, perhaps even placing it on par with other software in the same vein, but then value adding social purpose and good to the profit end of the business. I understand there is a Troika Tronix sponsored residency program, and there might be entry level programs that provide Isadora starter packages to young and emerging artists. I think the question is really how the expression of the 'concern for artists' is maximised in the business proposition and how any proposition is tested in the market. Are there enough users in a position to procure the software at a comparable market rate and who have the empathy for the social purpose expressed by Mark, that would then delight in the profits assisting struggling artists and creative producers through some kind of appropriate social purpose, perhaps some kind of application process to no cost license for a time limited program. I am thinking here of programs like Mobygratis, where the musician known as Moby vets non-profit applications for free licenses that allow the use of his music for projects.

All of the other propositions make sense; subscription, buy-to-own, time limited etc.

The big question ? for me is how the social concern for artists might be expressed while growing the software and appropriately compensating those people in the development team. 

Best Wishes,

bonemap

[mwasser]

• What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

I love (and agree with) the other ideas - especially marketing/advertising, and especially to schools/institutions.

I'd love to be able to make solid, easy-to-use tools in Isadora that I can send to someone as a self-contained application. That would make it easier to market and easier to get people using it. Like @Fred said, Isadora could come with some of these. And being able to make those files could be a more-expensive license.

• "Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

Both would be great. Though if it's one or the other, I'd have to go for subscription.

I'd very much prefer to just own the software myself. However, I also work with people in India, who would really benefit from using Isadora, but full license fees are completely out of the question. Q-Lab, however, is used all the time. A similar short-term rental option would open opportunities like that.

• Prices for rental/buy-to-own

What @danshorten said.

• Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

Support seems like a great way of price-differentiating without locking off capability, especially at the higher end. I think it may make sense to have more options than just "support" and "no support"

In either case, I also think it's better to phrase it as having a "premium support" option than a "forum only" option, partly because the forum is for more than just tech support.

• Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

Definitely. Not sure how to enforce it, though it sounds like it goes hand-in-hand with support tiers.

• If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

Developing and supporting a hardware package sounds like more trouble than it's worth, but I could see having a list of machines that you work and test on, so that we can choose similar ones. But comparing to specialized media servers - I don't think so. Isadora's something different (and better!).

[gavspav]

• What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

make it possible to create snapchat filters, make it free to under 18s 

• "Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

The first (cos I already own it!)

• What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

I don't know the market but you need to find best level for Isadora using maths and guesswork 

• What should the buy to own price for a new license be

500 euros?

• Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

Is there a market for this? Would it be profitable? Good use of time? What you want to do?

• Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

i think this works if you make it free for non commercial use but not sure otherwise. And can you afford that? Or some Radiohead pay as you can afford model. But it would be a brave and possibly suicidal move. Might increase the user base though. 

• If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

I doubt it. Unless it was a really cheap embedded programmable system. Or maybe a toothbrush. Or a hoodie!

Are users the best people to be asking these questions? You probably are asking other people too? but important to ask potential users/other software developers.

[Unfenswinger]

• What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

Almost no one I speak to knows about Isadora or has even seen it in action. I think Isadora has to somehow breakout of it's theatre and art workshop niche and find a broader user base. With a few changes Isadora could be an excellent real time motion graphics and compositing application and a lot of companies need to tell a story about data from financial to business performance etc so think a real time performance Keynote/PowerPoint that you can also export directly to social media.

The rise of the Twitch streamer! Streaming on Twitch and YT is a massive growth area and Isadora is ideal for the next level live presentation, this is Izzy's bread and butter. You can already receive various live cams and capture screens with Isadora's realtime processing these could help streamers take their content to the next level. It's a highly competitive field where Streamers are fighting for their audience and any competitive advantage or help to raise production value or strengthen their online brand Isadora could give them would be highly valued. So serious are these Streamers they normally have a gaming PC and a streaming PC to do the presentation. Top streamers are earning a fortune but they are also very good 'influencers' get a top Streamer onboard using Isadora and you could open up a different market as their followers will buy Isadora for their own channels. Frankly I'm amazed that people will sit at their computer screens and pay to watch other people play games but they do and in their masses and it is a big growth business screaming out for better production value.

I don't see anything like Isadora in the streaming space at all. Open Broadcaster seems to be _the_ streaming application of choice and it is limited to camera switching and fades etc.

Much of the funding questions would take care of themselves with a bigger userbase and I don't think Isadora has even reached the tip of the iceberg of its potential.

[SlaviG]

@mark said:

What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished"Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you preferWhat about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fairWhat should the buy to own price for a new license beShould we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

 "Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

• "Buy-to-own" is the best possible solution for me. One of my main reasons for stickying with Isadora is that it's NOT a subsciption based.

• What should the buy to own price for a new license be.
  100-200 Euro for upgrade.
• Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?).
  Pay for support seems reasonable.

[eight]

1. No crazyness from me

2. Buy-to-own and subscription. Buy-to-own -- I am using Isadora in spikes, not non-stop. Subscription, temporary license: I often find people would like to try to use Isadora in their theatre projects, but they are not sure to shell out the regular license fee for a software they are not sure to be using long term -- these people are mostly non-coders, like theatre directors, but fully capable of using Isadora's basic features

3. Monthly subscription price for the people in the above category would be something like 40 USD -- not sure this is fair for TroikaTronix, but this is maximum the people in the said category would be willing to pay, I think.

4. Buy to own new license -- 500 USD, academic discounts 25 %

5. Premium support -- not sure what that is, so no.

6. Yes. Also consider my case: I have my own private license, which I use for experimentation, proof-of-concept, but then when I go to a venue with the production I always ask them to buy a license, and they always do.

7. Myself not, but some venues might.

[jfg]

@mark

It is not possible to edit the first answer (it means only I haven't find how) so I write again.

I find the "Rent-to-own" concept from Qlab very interesting. Also a VGA version for school. It is frustrating for student to loose their exercices and it is not possible to buy a full license for every student.

We can all help and place and rate Isadora every time we visit some forums and Website like Macupdate.

best

Jean-François

[dbini]

i've been thinking about the buy-to-own vs subscription thing. i think the main issue is that i, along with pretty much everyone here, have invested quite a lot of cash in buying and upgrading Isadora so far (I have a standard license and a USB license) (plus the hardware to run it) and then to be asked to pay a monthly subscription to be able to use it feels frustrating. if the team are to start a subscription scheme, i think it needs to run alongside a buy-to-own system that takes into account the users' prior investments. i don't mind paying 100€ to upgrade to v3 to get access to increased performance and new features, but i wouldn't want to pay 20€ a month forever. (i currently pay 12.40€ a month for NIMate, after buying a license when it was first launched, and i'm not happy about that - particularly in the months when i don't use it)

[Joest]

What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished?

- As users we should talk more about the tools that we use in trade magazines, lectures, post-show discussions etc. Isadora is perfect for me in a theatre environment where I can quickly show a director changes to an effect without having to wait to render content, so I try to tell my students and colleagues this as often as possible, especially when talking to new clients about the kind of work that I can do.

- PLASA in the UK, along with the ABTT, do trade shows with seminars; a few of us UK users could do some demos of work or training sessions.

- Making the Werkstatt an annual event to network and keeping users connected in a more human context. A number of us in the UK keep in touch and swap headaches (and gigs) now and then but it'd be nice to have a regular date (outside the academic year) to look forward too. Berlin in the Summer is beautiful...

- "Free" SD version for academic students & teachers that runs VGA for 1 stage is a great idea. I teach a few classes a year and having students be able to save their progress will encourage them to keep playing with it. Academic licenses @ 25% off seem fair to allow students to use it for more complicated shows and art installations under the institution.

- A crazy idea, but Ad sponsorship every 30-60 mins via a flash up jpg/mov or similar on an unlicensed version? Sacrilege I know, but it works for "free" Spotify and would be fine for classroom learning. You'd then have to buy a short-term license for a public show's duration.

- How about a Patreon funded by power users or those who want to chip in for extra good karma? You could do the odd special actor release or tutorial video?

- Another horrible idea, but you asked... how about using some cpu processing on the free version for bitcoin mining or other tasks that could add a little back in odd revenue? ;)

- A "Merch" shop online? Isadora T Shirts etc? Perhaps forum users could arrange their own and "tithe back" the profits? It should be on buy-to-print so noone's paying for unsold stock up front.

- A deal with Matrox or Datapath for co-promoting Isadora with multiple output set-ups. A number of us rely on these display boxes to squeeze extra outputs from a single laptop and as a result can compete with a company that has vans full of media servers.

"Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer? What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair?

- Definitely BUY for me, but a subscription model like QLab's would be useful for others, or to help a producer to build it into a budget (for a specific license within a show's public run or the duration of a gallery exhibit or permanent advertising display). Maybe if the first month or two were free on an academic subscription that would give students a chance to try it out during a module or project?

- A subscription model wouldn't want to be connected to the Internet to validate if possible, so that auto-updates don't roll in and break/slow the machine

What should the buy to own price for a new license be?

- At least £400-500 seems more than fair in comparison to QLab etc, with a 50% upgrade price for owners of the previous full license version. I've talked about this with other users in the past and I've had more than my money's worth over the years. I'm not the only one who owes you a great debt.

Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

- The forum is great for most people's needs, but you've also always been there for me and a few friends offline when there's a glitch that we can't trace. ETC Lighting offer a great service like this, and whilst you wouldn't want to offer 24hr a day phone/email support, then a quick response is a selling point (not a price point). When Apple or Microsoft change/upgrade/destroy their OS procedures and break 3rd party software like Isadora you need to hear from the canaries quickly and be able to roll with it.

Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

- Everyone should get paid for their art. I believe in supporting student licenses to encourage them to learn the programme and use it in the future, but nobody should be doing things "for the exposure" and that includes the makers of Isadora. Students academic licenses could be reduced further in price if they expired after 3 years without an upgrade payment to "full" (rather than a new full price fee).

If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

- Not personally. Up to date guidelines on the website about recommended minimum specs are good enough, along with tips for optimising performance. I don't think you'd make anything after paying for your time to develop an off the shelf "Isadoratizer" rack-mounted unit. With the proper guidance on shutting down other programmes whilst running a show, and getting a capable laptop/desktop for what you want to achieve most people will trust their own kit (although continue to use it for ALL their work software). Think of the ongoing hardware support costs.

[vixmedia]

Dear Mark,

I don't use Isadora all the time but I still prefer to buy and own the software. I don't want constant updates in the middle of a show I want stability.

If I own the software I keep the same version until the show is complete.

However, I am planning to teach the software, but the lab is concerned about the price of the software. 

It would be a good time to offer a daily/weekly lab subscription for the duration of the class. I want to help Isadora grow by teaching the software.

I agree with a tiered pricing system geared to support level with a student/lab bulk option.

Premium support should be paid. 

I would like to get an artist license -- I have never made any money at all on my shows. 

Example -- I am going to my DVD release where I will use Isadora for the first time in a few years. The show is costing me about $1800. plus airfare.

Tickets are $10 suggested/sliding scale at the door. 

I share your economic situation.

However, I know some people are using Isadora commercially and do make an income from it. They should pay for a commercial license.

I think the Isadora that I am using now is so much better than the previous versions -- drag and drop -- amazing. 

I would like a higher sampling/bit rate on the audio. That's all right now.

I am very happy using Isadora and hope I don't get priced out. However, I will just use the version I have -- it's pretty good!

[eight]

@mark Here's a crazy idea: how about you charge for specific features. For example, supporting some weird (for some) movie file formats (HAP), or shader support (some will never use it, but others, like myself, will often do), or some weird camera support.

[timeg]

I strongly prefer the user own model especially for existing owners. More than happy to pay for upgrades. Existing in a complicated world of RMB AU$ and NZ$ I shall decline to put a figure out there. Tiering is good though. As an artist with now 40 years of practice behind me. I truly respect artist driven software and the truth that younger artists need to be able to get in easily and older ones are and should be happy to pay commensurately.

I think having a subscription model in parallel for new and different types of users is a very good idea. One that can be turned ON and OFF

I also strongly support a viable student model, that will get more people using it. I also have just taken up an academic position and am very keen to get it into the lab.

Having done extensive comparisons to the alternate offerings repeatedly over the years, IZZY is and continues to be the best offering and value not just in money terms. Exploring avenues for making the brand more visible and value perceived is a very worthy idea.

Not so sure at all about hardware for complex reasons.

Bravo to the forum as ever. Some terrific feedback in this stream. This strength is such a big part of IZZYs value. (Yah the social conscience bonemap)

[Lauri]

Isadora has been really a great tool, and I'm eagerly waiting for the new release.

Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

I also prefer “buy-to-own”.

I think it’s very important to have access to the free Isadora version with which you cannot save projects – as it has been until now.

Usually artists like me don’t sell their installation work, and – at least in my country – they don’t get paid for the exhibitions in a gallery (or most times even in a museum). In addition, artists have to pay for everything to show their work (renting equipment, build the structures,…). 

As an artist, I’m often having gallery exhibitions with borrowed or rented computers. If I had to install a full version to a borrowed/rented computer, I would need to pay Isadora twice. And I don’t think that’s fair. Also, I would't like to waste the Isadora registerings to a computer I don't own.

I’ve been very happy to work with the extremely versatile Isadora, and hopefully I can afford doing that in the future too.

Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

I’m not agaist premium support, but 90% of times I’ve asked something in the forum, it has been because of a bug report. I think it’s fair not having to pay for a bug report - and having that bug repaired.

And yes, the great Isadora forum is an indispensable part of the Isadora app.

If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

For my purposes, I often find that there are different kinds of hardware needs depending on the project, so what would be the package that covers “all needs”? Hopefully in the Mac realm also there will be soon stronger machines that have faster cpu/gpu/… available – for different kinds of purposes (not only Isadora). Could that package fully serve and cover our expanding needs? So, I suppose, it depends on the package, but probably no.

[bonemap]

Hi,

• What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

I see a whole imaginative world built around the software that has a unique brand position. Perhaps around the idea of ‘experiential programming’ and connectivity, where Isadora plays beautifully (joyfully) with other software and hardware systems without the need for coding. Isadora is more than a node based procedural media application used to build realtime graphics systems, it is also a thriving industry and world-wide community.

In this imaginative world Isadora builds character by crowd sourcing; developers; tutorials; support services.

It continuously markets its advantage and profiles its team and users with testimonials linked to innovations; high profile venues; user clusters and user stories.

It builds brand awareness and currency by maintaining up-to-date tutorials on YouTube and Lynda.com.

Its user friendly qualities suited to entry level visual programming are highlighted for new users and made available in a free stripped down version (no longer save disabled) aimed at developing long lasting partnerships with young creatives transitioning from art and media schools.

Its qualities of rapid prototyping; versioning; generative art; animation and procedural creative development are showcased at the highest levels of the industry and with the most influential artists across the world.

• "Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

Anyone who uses Isadora on a daily or weekly basis is going to want to buy-to-own (I fit into this category). Anyone using Isadora infrequently will like an opt-in/opt-out option on time limited licences ( I have this relationship with a couple of other pieces of software). Continuous subscriptions like Adobe CC would suck for Isadora users like me.

• What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

My initial purchase in 2002 was $290 AUD with a USB key addition +$85 with a v1 to v2 upgrade +$165 total amount = $540 ($412US) paid to Troikatronix for software with now over 15 years of up-to-date use (actually there were additional costs for core audio and core video at some stage). That is equivalent to around $2.80 month or $33.75 year, if this is the same for a lot of long term users then I can understand why you are asking these questions and you are lucky to still be solvent!

I am a bit hesitant to admit, but the yearly cost will need to be under $300 as a disincentive from switching completely to TouchDesigner. It would have to be competitive with closest rivals.

• What should the buy to own price for a new license be

Standard edition $600US

• Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

Sell support tickets for those who need it. Maintain the forum as a crowd sourced solution and team communication site – it feels so inclusive and is a key site for the community (thankfully it hasn't all moved to facebook).

• Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

I am not convinced that this will work for arodasi. Is non-commercial the same as non-profit? I think youth oriented access is vital, not sure if this is the same as non-commercial/commercial?

In my experience emerging and young artists that cannot afford software licences still manage to access cracked versions. Remember the days of looking at the cost of outright licenses of the Adobe Mater Collection and then heading straight for LimeWire or The Pirate Bay? Thankfully I grew up and was fortunate enough to be in a place where I could afford a range of software lisences.

An appropriate strategy to get the software in the hands of young users is going to be critical for the sustainability of the enterprise. You don’t want a bunch of aging early adopters being your only market. A functional but stripped down version offered for free might work.

A functional stripped down version would also be useful if it could play fully developed patches (perhaps with a lock on some functionality) that pro users are then able to distribute to clients.

• If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

Freight costs would kill it. Unless you had a network of affiliated agents/distributors that pushed a solution package into local markets. Is that a TroikaTronix franchise empire start-up?

best wishes

bonemap

(arodasi = isadora backwards)

[Kathmandale]

Hello All,

some very good points above. Anyone I double up with on ideas please take this as a blanket acknowledgement.

• What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

I don't have any wild ideas - there are some good ones above. I think the best are around 'out of the box' examples: having ready made patches that new users could use as a vision-mixer, mapping tool, 'play-these-10-clips-in-order-with-a-crossfade' tool... These could be opened up and explored. I know that I learnt a huge amount from the various example patches years ago but they could definitely do with an update.

• "Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

I like having a license that I own and am happy to contribute for upgrades. I think most users are probably the same. I do get grumpy with companies who sell you a license to own and then change to a subscription (adobe, deli-code, you guys can take a bow). I have become a big fan of QLabs licensing system, you can own it outright, you can rent it by the day and your rentals count towards owning it outright. Personally, when I work on a show using Issy I rarely leave my license on the show, it's on my laptop and stays with me. I get the company to buy their own. In many instances this is fine, but in others they simply can't afford it and I either leave my machine there or they run it in demo mode knowing they can't make changes. I think a rent by the day license would see a huge number of individual artists and smaller companies paying on a show-by-show basis. Often, on the same production that is using a demo version of Issy, they're using a QLab license by the day. They can pay $5 per day for a few nights but not for a license outright. If the account system allowed these 'rentals' to be tracked they could count towards a discount off the full price when people are in a position to pay. I'm not so sure about monthly subscriptions simply because I think more people will be happy to pay if they can just pay when they need it (like QLab) rather than for all the time when they don't.

• Pricing:

I think the following would be good:

Own it: £400-£500

Version Upgrades: £100-£150 ((every two years or so)

Per day: £5-£10

And as I've said above, rentals could count towards a purchase. I think this would be especially useful when considering users around the world who aren't in a position to buy but could contribute on a show by show basis.

• Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

I think the forum is incredible and is usually the only support I need. I think it would be a shame to put it behind a paywall as it's so inclusive. In terms of dedicated support from the team I have two thoughts: 1) If there is a bug in the software then we shouldn't be being charged for finding it. 2) If a user is struggling to make their own hardware work or would like help with their own programming within Issy and want a direct helpline to the team (beyond the extensive support on the forum, knowledge banks etc) then I have no problem with them being charged for that.

• Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

I find this incredibly complex to know where to draw the line. So many of us work across commercial/non-commercial/educational/non-profit/etc that for the conscientious user it becomes a moral mine field. For the unscrupulous it becomes an easy way to pay less than you should be! I'd be happy to see a 'basic' version with limited maximum resolution output and/or other limited features but with the ability to save work. This would be especially good in workshop and education environments. Pricing wise I'd put it at half the full version. I'd keep the free demo (with no save) version as it is.

• If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

I know most people have said no to this but I think it'd be interesting. I guess really how much support you would have to put in would determine if it'd be worth it for you. For the user/buyer it would be about getting a simple solution to the 'what do I need to run this show' question that must come up all the time. The hard part is pitching it to different levels and people not blaming the hardware for not being able to run a complex show when they thought they were buying something more powerful. I'd suggest something like:

1) A 'micro-server' - small enough to hide behind a display screen or inside a set or installation. Gigabyte Brix or Intel NUC kind of size, like ETC's Nomad Puck. Only recommended to run one screen (that is also it's 'desktop') with a couple of layers of video and a HID. Or whatever it's capable of after some testing. Around £500 plus Issy license.

2) A 'touring-server' - 1u rackmount PC with at lest 1 dual-link output or maybe 2, plus a VGA monitor for control. Around £1500 + Issy

3) A 'monster-server' - 4u all singing all dancing powerhouse for large mapping projects and as many outputs as you can get out of a top GPU. £... Whatever it costs for the best machine you could build.

It might be possible to come to an arrangement with a custom PC builder who would take care of the support side for the hardware with you acting as a re-seller having loaded on the software/license and set everything up. They get more custom, you get a reliable source of hardware and take a cut on the re-sale.

Looking forward to seeing how things develop over he next few months.