Isadora 3 Pricing: Please Read and Respond

Kathmandale

Hello All,

some very good points above. Anyone I double up with on ideas please take this as a blanket acknowledgement.

What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

I don't have any wild ideas - there are some good ones above. I think the best are around 'out of the box' examples: having ready made patches that new users could use as a vision-mixer, mapping tool, 'play-these-10-clips-in-order-with-a-crossfade' tool... These could be opened up and explored. I know that I learnt a huge amount from the various example patches years ago but they could definitely do with an update.

"Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

I like having a license that I own and am happy to contribute for upgrades. I think most users are probably the same. I do get grumpy with companies who sell you a license to own and then change to a subscription (adobe, deli-code, you guys can take a bow). I have become a big fan of QLabs licensing system, you can own it outright, you can rent it by the day and your rentals count towards owning it outright. Personally, when I work on a show using Issy I rarely leave my license on the show, it's on my laptop and stays with me. I get the company to buy their own. In many instances this is fine, but in others they simply can't afford it and I either leave my machine there or they run it in demo mode knowing they can't make changes. I think a rent by the day license would see a huge number of individual artists and smaller companies paying on a show-by-show basis. Often, on the same production that is using a demo version of Issy, they're using a QLab license by the day. They can pay $5 per day for a few nights but not for a license outright. If the account system allowed these 'rentals' to be tracked they could count towards a discount off the full price when people are in a position to pay. I'm not so sure about monthly subscriptions simply because I think more people will be happy to pay if they can just pay when they need it (like QLab) rather than for all the time when they don't.

Pricing:

I think the following would be good:

Own it: £400-£500

Version Upgrades: £100-£150 ((every two years or so)

Per day: £5-£10

And as I've said above, rentals could count towards a purchase. I think this would be especially useful when considering users around the world who aren't in a position to buy but could contribute on a show by show basis.

Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

I think the forum is incredible and is usually the only support I need. I think it would be a shame to put it behind a paywall as it's so inclusive. In terms of dedicated support from the team I have two thoughts: 1) If there is a bug in the software then we shouldn't be being charged for finding it. 2) If a user is struggling to make their own hardware work or would like help with their own programming within Issy and want a direct helpline to the team (beyond the extensive support on the forum, knowledge banks etc) then I have no problem with them being charged for that.

Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

I find this incredibly complex to know where to draw the line. So many of us work across commercial/non-commercial/educational/non-profit/etc that for the conscientious user it becomes a moral mine field. For the unscrupulous it becomes an easy way to pay less than you should be! I'd be happy to see a 'basic' version with limited maximum resolution output and/or other limited features but with the ability to save work. This would be especially good in workshop and education environments. Pricing wise I'd put it at half the full version. I'd keep the free demo (with no save) version as it is.

If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

I know most people have said no to this but I think it'd be interesting. I guess really how much support you would have to put in would determine if it'd be worth it for you. For the user/buyer it would be about getting a simple solution to the 'what do I need to run this show' question that must come up all the time. The hard part is pitching it to different levels and people not blaming the hardware for not being able to run a complex show when they thought they were buying something more powerful. I'd suggest something like:

1) A 'micro-server' - small enough to hide behind a display screen or inside a set or installation. Gigabyte Brix or Intel NUC kind of size, like ETC's Nomad Puck. Only recommended to run one screen (that is also it's 'desktop') with a couple of layers of video and a HID. Or whatever it's capable of after some testing. Around £500 plus Issy license.

2) A 'touring-server' - 1u rackmount PC with at lest 1 dual-link output or maybe 2, plus a VGA monitor for control. Around £1500 + Issy

3) A 'monster-server' - 4u all singing all dancing powerhouse for large mapping projects and as many outputs as you can get out of a top GPU. £... Whatever it costs for the best machine you could build.

It might be possible to come to an arrangement with a custom PC builder who would take care of the support side for the hardware with you acting as a re-seller having loaded on the software/license and set everything up. They get more custom, you get a reliable source of hardware and take a cut on the re-sale.

Looking forward to seeing how things develop over he next few months.

JJHP3

Hi All

I'm a simple guy and I think that the v3 price should be a purchase, not a subscription. In fact, I would seriously consider alternative programs if I must pay by the month. Many of the programs I use charge $ full price for the original purchase, then upgrades are $ full price minus 25% or some percent. Tiers of support seems complicated too.

Just my 2¢

John

mark

@JJHP3

Just to be clear to everyone: as I said in my original post, we will not switch to a subscription model but will offer it in addition to the "buy to own" option.

I just wanted to emphasize this because in John's post above (and a couple of others) it seemed like some of you thought we might switch completely to a subscription model. Rest assured, both options will be offered, not one or the other.

Best Wishes,
Mark

P.S. I'm not a personally a fan of subscriptions either, though its clear that it works for some users. I'd always go for the buy to own option myself.

KosmoPilot

I use Isa since the beta from 2003. But only for a short time every year. Monthly subscription could be a way for me. But I also like to support your work, so if it is not too expensive (about 120 €), I would pay for a license update.

Maybe the "Blackmagic Resolve" way could be a good idea: a free software with limited functions. I know that some folks like to try different things to find their way. This could be a way to let them try.

KosmoPilot

I forgot:

a "shop" for readymade workarounds could be an additional way to get some money. 8.99 for a simple vj mixer, 19.99 for kinect setup etc.; starting 800.00 for a personal version of a project.

I use this software at work for livestreaming stuff, have a look at their way (not at the prices ;-) mimolive

knowtheatre

What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

Speaking for myself (though I have a feeling a lot of other users share this sentiment), I have a very special relationship with Isadora that I don't have with other software. QLab is a tool I sometimes use in my work, but Isadora is my creative outlet. And I think a large part of that feeling has to do with Mark's "concern for artists and artmaking." So again, thank you to the Isadora team for the amazing support you've given your user base.

That being said, I think @Fred raises some interesting points about Isadora's niche in the market. Coming from a theatre background, and especially running a Fringe Festival, QLab is the definite go-to solution. I hear from a lot of non-tech artists doing Fringe that while they may have heard of Isadora, it's intimidating to them as laypeople. Suggestions already offered of a highly produced sample patch, showing off some of Izzy's capabilities and possibilities, coupled with a package of a few very basic and often used sample patches, would go a long way toward helping artists who aren't necessarily as tech-savvy learn how to "talk" to Isadora. I also think having a fully functional demo version, with the ability to save, would be helpful for those first learning the program. Capping it at a low resolution, only accessing one stage, or perhaps using a watermark on the stages would be a possibility.

I've no idea why Qlab became the standard for theatre, or Resolume for VJ, etc. Visibility is key...i.e. tutorial videos, demos, user projects on Youtube, showcasing both the novice and diy users as well as the big-budget, high profile productions. I'm not sure how to facilitate that, though.

What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

I think somewhere in the $10-$15/month sounds about right, with a discount for a yearly subscription.

"Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

I definitely prefer buy-to-own. However, I think a rent-to-own option (as opposed to, or in addition to a subscription), including daily rates if possible would be super helpful. I frequently work in small theatres who may not be comfortable dropping the full purchase price for an unknown-to-them software they may only use for one production.

What should the buy to own price for a new license be

The current pricing structure seems reasonable to me and the types of venues I usually work. I think there's room to increase this number, but if it were to go over $750, I might start getting the stink-eye from those in charge of the budgets.

Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

I don't think I would necessarily go in for premium support, but I can see how that might be beneficial for some. I guess it would depend on what that premium support entails...

Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

I feel like there should be discounts for "non-profit" and "student/educational" licenses, but as others have stated, it's somewhat hazy where to make that distinction.

If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

This is an interesting idea. I don't think I would personally use this, but I know of many folks who might. Again, artists who might not be tech-savvy enough to want to spec out different machines. The price point would need to be right for these users, though, and I think a tiering option would be imperative. Maybe this would also be an opportunity for co-branding and sponsorship, as in "Isadora-powered by AMD" or something. Is this something that big tech companies do?

Edalia

Personally I think the buy to own model means I've invested in making Isadora work for me. Isadora is great. don't get me wrong, but if it had been a subscription I think in the early days I probably would have dipped in and out of it, subscribing for a few months at a time. I use adobe all the time for my animation but Isadora in short bursts.

On the other hand having subscription might mean that a lot more people use it - dipping in and out of it. I'm no expert in product pricing though - if it's tricky managing the finances then it's probably worth trying.

ian

Hi Mark and all,

Sorry for taking a few days to respond - just finished a project. Love a lot of the ideas I'm seeing already.

What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

A few ideas: I could imagine a) developing ways to support community developed actors / plugins as a way of meeting the needs for some of the unusual, and often very specific features many of us want from time to time. In cases where I've developed a actor for a custom one-off purpose I know I've been reluctant to share it back to the wild because typically its been tested only for a very specific purpose and isn't robust or reliable in any way - and never having time or energy to do that. Perhaps there could be a parallel "isadora foundation" or other non-profit / social enterprise adjunct that helped support community efforts, and also help ease any licensing issues around open source libraries.

b) the gaming development world has some unique licensing models -- for ex. unreal engine (https://www.unrealengine.com/e...) licenses their development tools on a royalty basis of gross revenue. I'm not sure any of us make enough to make this a commercially viable option, but an interesting idea.

c) developing an "implementation partner" / technical assistance provider / consulting program. I could imagine a program where institutional users could (for some predictable fee) readily identify and purchase services from more local technical assistance providers being beneficial to everyone. If that program came with an allowance of priority support for the project I could see that being useful. My experience with doing the occasional consults for this sort of thing is that some type of one-off implementation fee that speeds up the consulting process would be readily paid if part of an package. A couple example projects where this could have been useful - consulting for an educational institution to integrate isadora into their lab and classes and training their IT team on supporting it; helping a museum/gallery/venue install a semi-permanent installation running on isadora, that will then be supported by on-site staff.

d) extending the werkstatt idea to a more places besides berlin.

"Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

Generally buy to own. But - short term subscription or rental for specific projects is very useful. The current Q-lab daily rental to own model is pretty designer friendly.

What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

The Max subscription pricing seems pretty affordable, yet hopefully high enough to support development costs - https://cycling74.com/shop

What should the buy to own price for a new license be

The 400 - 500 range still seems pretty fair.

Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

An option (perhaps on project basis or annual subscription) I could imagine being very helpful. To be really useful though it'd need to be a very fast response time -- think large venue settings with limited tech time. The big question for me is whether the staffing needed would be able to be supported off the subscription fees. The current forum and ticket based support is one of the big pluses for me.

Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

Definitely, Definitely, defintely! -- just not to the level of Vectorworks ;)

On the non-commercial side I know I've had many many workshop students on student budgets that would happily pay something for a licence, but can't afford the current cost so find a way to keep using the demo, use someone else's installation or share a license.Some modest student / young artist friendly amount times several hundred has to add up!

If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

Probably not. At a minimum, I'd want to know there was a local distributor to provide a hot swap unit, and having done a number of hardware customisations for clients -- I think it'd be extremely hard to keep the pricing in any way competitive and handle the level of post-purchase hardware support needed for a professional machine.

I think its great actually that TT is not a media server company with everything locked down. That alone is selling point!

But ---a regularly updated spec sheet of "dream machine configurations we have tested and seen work" could be really helpful for a lot of new users.

LPmode

What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

I love Isadora but the feature I would consider as the vital for Isadora 3 is reliability. Make isadora actors multithreaded to distribute the load to address stuttering and isolate each actor processes thread so it does not take the entire program down. Address memory leaks for long running installations. I can see an isadora stutter from a mile. Everytime isadora crashes a memory of my childhood gets erased, its place filled with the anguish of the Isadora disappearing act. That's my crazy wild unusual hope for Isadora 3 I believe will help it recapture the youthful spirit and help it flourish.

"Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

I prefer to own a floating licence that I can manage on which system I want to use it. -qlab/resolume model is solid and user oriented.

*What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

Rent to own I think would be a better way to help people pay for Isadora on their own terms for the times they need. I think subscriptions can work against the user if the licence times out in the middle of a run or extends of unnecessary times.

Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

The non commercial version should be a free, save capable but with basic options. QLab's main success story is because of the free basic version used by students\designers\organisation in actual productions. Isadora is not that difficult to learn but if you help people use it for their small projects they will learn its powers and easily pay for the more features.

The commercial version can go up in cost to compensate. As a seasoned designer I use it enough to spend $1000 yearly on on upgrading and acquiring the tools I need. I am always keeping an eye out for the next program that can give me a ride to the next level. Make that be Isadora 3.

If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

I would not be interested in any hardware. I build our own patches and I build my own hardware. Isadora hardware would seem like a misplaced developer resource.

Videosmith

@mark

Hi all

apologies if I’m repeating points, but my two pence:

1. I support the goal of sustainable development of izzy and community and people getting paid for your skills and time.

2. I like the current owner model and price - i think paying more would perhaps be prohibitive for me - but I’ve been happy to invest in izzy over the years through buying it and getting upgrades. I like the usb key!

3. I can’t distinguish between commercial / non commercial use (in context of arts practice).

4. Subscription model would be useful in lowering the bar / managing use for projects, esp with outside partners - e.g., just get the museum to budget 3 months izzy license as part of an inst

5. Tiered versions interesting, but I would make it a very BASIC version - key features / actors only

a) to allow a much more affordable version for starters
b) justify pricing for a ‘pro’ version (i.e. current version) without alienating ‘pro’ users
c) simplify the interface to make it more accessible for people starting out (less is more)

6. EDUCATION - (points 4+5 combined) - institutions and students need a lower threshold for entry. They are your future user / market.

My graduating students love izzy, but only 1 has been able to persuade his part-time employer to buy it. None can afford it for themselves. For an institution, the 10% discount feels nominal. At Liv John Moores uni, we bought 10 x std licenses (v1.3), but they never got upgraded. At Man Met Uni, we bought 2 x usb licenses, which get well used, and means we effectively have izzy on all machines. But students in my case rarely need more than basic functions, and they’d work with it more if they could all save patches. So an educational subscription model, and / or a ‘basic’ version of izzy would get more buy in from the uni, students and the graduates.

phew!

all the best in any case, and well done

Sam

GoddessMoon2017

@mark I really love using Isadora. I have two major obstacles. One is the pricing. As an single artist I can't afford the 500.00 license fee. The free download is good, but limiting since it can't be saved. I think a monthly subscription would make Isadora much more accessible and affordable. The second thing is I think there needs to be more tutorials that shows the patches and how you actually get there. I would love to teach Isadora to my students, but I need to learn more about how to use the program. The last thing I am wondering is if Isadora new version will better integrate and work with 3D or VR programs. I am really excited to see what the new version of Isadora will bring.

.

Videosmith

@goddessmoon2017 I always point my students to Mark's video tutorials on Youtube. I also have some worksheets I'm happy to share (attached). Any other educational resources out there? It would be good to develop them further.

ISADORA WORKSHEET 2.1 - FX.pdf
ISADORA WORKSHEET 1.1 - BASICS.pdf
izz_worksheet_old_03_structure.pdf
izz_worksheet_old_02_camera.pdf
izz_worksheet_old_01_basics.pdf

RIL

@videosmith just in case you are interested and for the rest to know there are video tutorials in spanish. Maybe you have students of the Latin community that may be interested. The Isadora Latin Network is working in that direction (educational among others)

Here the link

Best,

Maxi Wille

Videosmith

@ril many thanks! gracias!

Clement

Hello Izzy users !

I didn't post a lot these last times but here is the occasion.

I know that software development has to follow an economic model to let it grow and pay the team at its fair and right value, what is all I wish for the fantastic tech staff, but I would like to express my point of view with regard to the different fees announced.

The thing is that I use Isadora since 2012 and I really love the sofware and its great community. I decided to buy a licence because I wanted to develop video installations and make personal researches, so with the first upgrade to V2, the total amount I payed is around 500€. Unfortunately I didn't succeed to find the necessary funds to realise my ideas, but I don't lose hope of doing things... Alongside I used Izzy one time on a show for a theatre company.

So the question of non-profit / non-commercial use is important for me because I would like to keep training (and saving projects) on up-to-date versions with new features, but having to pay for each new upgrade can be a brake for low budgets... As mentioned in posts above, this is a very complicated point because of the lake of control and the honesty involded by users. I don't know how to solve this question, more inspections on potential commercial uses ? Maybe, not sure, we are already surrounded by restrictive rules. But if a non-commercial use can be considered with a significant different price, I'm in favour.

And what about the next Mac OS X Mojave and the specific 64 bits system ? I'm not for Mac updates (still on 10.9 Mavericks) because new OS are more and more heavy with few interests, but if I have to update for 10.14 Mojave, I will have to switch on Isadora V3 and I hope the upgrade will be as low as possible.

The subscription can be a good idea (even if I prefer the Buy-to-own model for myself) to allow companies to use Isadora when needed without paying the full price, even if once again the actual full price is not overvalue in most cases. I think it's good to keep the free trial version without save possibilty.

Here is just my point of view and I'm not a typical user, I would like to use Issy more than ever in my work. I hope you will find the most relevant economic model and the best way to pay correctly all the team.

Best wishes. Clement

Personally speaking, as someone involved in multimedia within a UK higher education institution, budgets are being stretched further and further each year, and demands of students increase year on year.

We currently have 2 x USB licences, and these are well used and I've started running sessions for students a couple of times a year showcasing some of the amazing things that can be done with Isadora, however, in it's current guise, it's difficult to run these sessions as students are unable to save their patches once they've created things that interest them. I've seen a high proportion of attendees who are really keen, having created patches in the sessions who then borrow the USB licence only to flag when faced with a blank screen whilst trying to recreate these patches on their own. Therefore, the ability to save in a limited free version would be amazing, even if it had the limitation of large watermarks on outputs.

A daily or weekly release licence (up to £5/£25 respectively) could then be purchased for these projects that removed the watermarks, however, people would have the ability to really see, explore, and - importantly - get to grips with what Isadora was capable of doing.

mark

Dear Community,

We didn't say a lot here because we wanted to hear from you. But we most certainly did listen. The entire team ead every word, and we had many discussions based on what you had to say above. You brought many important issues and concerns to our attention, and that became part of how we came to our decisions on the Isadora v3 pricing.

I've just posted the official announcement on this, which you can read here. As you can see, we've made a decision to pursue the educational market more agressively, because we see that as a one of the paths to a sustainable future. But we have also come up with a way to give artists who truly can't afford Isadora a chance to get their hands on it -- something that was incredibly important to me personally.

I hope that you'll find our plan to be fair for all.

Thank you, as always, for all that you do to support Isadora and the our community.

Have a great weekend,
Mark

Juriaan

Hi there @mark,

Are the USB licences still for sale ? Since the announcements only speaks about 'Standard Licenses' and doesn't has a USB version listed.

mark

@juriaan said:

Are the USB licences still for sale ? Since the announcements only speaks about 'Standard Licenses' and doesn't has a USB version listed.

Ah, that's an oversight on my part. We will still offer the USB Keys. We will need to raise the price from the US$80 price they are now because the overhead dealing with these physical products (preparing them, shipping them, etc.) doesn't leave much room for profit. I will have to get back to everyone regarding the price.

But I'll edit the article to show we'll do it.

Thanks,
Mark

Juriaan

Okay :) The price for V2 to V3 USB version is the same as a standard license correct ?