Isadora 3 Pricing: Please Read and Respond

Edalia

Personally I think the buy to own model means I've invested in making Isadora work for me. Isadora is great. don't get me wrong, but if it had been a subscription I think in the early days I probably would have dipped in and out of it, subscribing for a few months at a time. I use adobe all the time for my animation but Isadora in short bursts.

On the other hand having subscription might mean that a lot more people use it - dipping in and out of it. I'm no expert in product pricing though - if it's tricky managing the finances then it's probably worth trying.

ian

Hi Mark and all,

Sorry for taking a few days to respond - just finished a project. Love a lot of the ideas I'm seeing already.

What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

A few ideas: I could imagine a) developing ways to support community developed actors / plugins as a way of meeting the needs for some of the unusual, and often very specific features many of us want from time to time. In cases where I've developed a actor for a custom one-off purpose I know I've been reluctant to share it back to the wild because typically its been tested only for a very specific purpose and isn't robust or reliable in any way - and never having time or energy to do that. Perhaps there could be a parallel "isadora foundation" or other non-profit / social enterprise adjunct that helped support community efforts, and also help ease any licensing issues around open source libraries.

b) the gaming development world has some unique licensing models -- for ex. unreal engine (https://www.unrealengine.com/e...) licenses their development tools on a royalty basis of gross revenue. I'm not sure any of us make enough to make this a commercially viable option, but an interesting idea.

c) developing an "implementation partner" / technical assistance provider / consulting program. I could imagine a program where institutional users could (for some predictable fee) readily identify and purchase services from more local technical assistance providers being beneficial to everyone. If that program came with an allowance of priority support for the project I could see that being useful. My experience with doing the occasional consults for this sort of thing is that some type of one-off implementation fee that speeds up the consulting process would be readily paid if part of an package. A couple example projects where this could have been useful - consulting for an educational institution to integrate isadora into their lab and classes and training their IT team on supporting it; helping a museum/gallery/venue install a semi-permanent installation running on isadora, that will then be supported by on-site staff.

d) extending the werkstatt idea to a more places besides berlin.

"Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

Generally buy to own. But - short term subscription or rental for specific projects is very useful. The current Q-lab daily rental to own model is pretty designer friendly.

What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

The Max subscription pricing seems pretty affordable, yet hopefully high enough to support development costs - https://cycling74.com/shop

What should the buy to own price for a new license be

The 400 - 500 range still seems pretty fair.

Should we offer premium support and charge more for those who receive it? (Or offer a less expensive version that comes with forum-only support?)

An option (perhaps on project basis or annual subscription) I could imagine being very helpful. To be really useful though it'd need to be a very fast response time -- think large venue settings with limited tech time. The big question for me is whether the staffing needed would be able to be supported off the subscription fees. The current forum and ticket based support is one of the big pluses for me.

Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

Definitely, Definitely, defintely! -- just not to the level of Vectorworks ;)

On the non-commercial side I know I've had many many workshop students on student budgets that would happily pay something for a licence, but can't afford the current cost so find a way to keep using the demo, use someone else's installation or share a license.Some modest student / young artist friendly amount times several hundred has to add up!

If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

Probably not. At a minimum, I'd want to know there was a local distributor to provide a hot swap unit, and having done a number of hardware customisations for clients -- I think it'd be extremely hard to keep the pricing in any way competitive and handle the level of post-purchase hardware support needed for a professional machine.

I think its great actually that TT is not a media server company with everything locked down. That alone is selling point!

But ---a regularly updated spec sheet of "dream machine configurations we have tested and seen work" could be really helpful for a lot of new users.

LPmode

What would be your wildly unusual/crazy/unexpected means to ensure that Isadora grows and flourished

I love Isadora but the feature I would consider as the vital for Isadora 3 is reliability. Make isadora actors multithreaded to distribute the load to address stuttering and isolate each actor processes thread so it does not take the entire program down. Address memory leaks for long running installations. I can see an isadora stutter from a mile. Everytime isadora crashes a memory of my childhood gets erased, its place filled with the anguish of the Isadora disappearing act. That's my crazy wild unusual hope for Isadora 3 I believe will help it recapture the youthful spirit and help it flourish.

"Buy-to-own" or a subscription? Which do you prefer

I prefer to own a floating licence that I can manage on which system I want to use it. -qlab/resolume model is solid and user oriented.

*What about the yearly and monthly subscription prices? What do you think is fair

Rent to own I think would be a better way to help people pay for Isadora on their own terms for the times they need. I think subscriptions can work against the user if the licence times out in the middle of a run or extends of unnecessary times.

Should there be a difference in price for commercial and non-commercial use?

The non commercial version should be a free, save capable but with basic options. QLab's main success story is because of the free basic version used by students\designers\organisation in actual productions. Isadora is not that difficult to learn but if you help people use it for their small projects they will learn its powers and easily pay for the more features.

The commercial version can go up in cost to compensate. As a seasoned designer I use it enough to spend $1000 yearly on on upgrading and acquiring the tools I need. I am always keeping an eye out for the next program that can give me a ride to the next level. Make that be Isadora 3.

If we offered a hardware package, would you be interested to buy it?

I would not be interested in any hardware. I build our own patches and I build my own hardware. Isadora hardware would seem like a misplaced developer resource.

Videosmith

@mark

Hi all

apologies if I’m repeating points, but my two pence:

1. I support the goal of sustainable development of izzy and community and people getting paid for your skills and time.

2. I like the current owner model and price - i think paying more would perhaps be prohibitive for me - but I’ve been happy to invest in izzy over the years through buying it and getting upgrades. I like the usb key!

3. I can’t distinguish between commercial / non commercial use (in context of arts practice).

4. Subscription model would be useful in lowering the bar / managing use for projects, esp with outside partners - e.g., just get the museum to budget 3 months izzy license as part of an inst

5. Tiered versions interesting, but I would make it a very BASIC version - key features / actors only

a) to allow a much more affordable version for starters
b) justify pricing for a ‘pro’ version (i.e. current version) without alienating ‘pro’ users
c) simplify the interface to make it more accessible for people starting out (less is more)

6. EDUCATION - (points 4+5 combined) - institutions and students need a lower threshold for entry. They are your future user / market.

My graduating students love izzy, but only 1 has been able to persuade his part-time employer to buy it. None can afford it for themselves. For an institution, the 10% discount feels nominal. At Liv John Moores uni, we bought 10 x std licenses (v1.3), but they never got upgraded. At Man Met Uni, we bought 2 x usb licenses, which get well used, and means we effectively have izzy on all machines. But students in my case rarely need more than basic functions, and they’d work with it more if they could all save patches. So an educational subscription model, and / or a ‘basic’ version of izzy would get more buy in from the uni, students and the graduates.

phew!

all the best in any case, and well done

Sam

GoddessMoon2017

@mark I really love using Isadora. I have two major obstacles. One is the pricing. As an single artist I can't afford the 500.00 license fee. The free download is good, but limiting since it can't be saved. I think a monthly subscription would make Isadora much more accessible and affordable. The second thing is I think there needs to be more tutorials that shows the patches and how you actually get there. I would love to teach Isadora to my students, but I need to learn more about how to use the program. The last thing I am wondering is if Isadora new version will better integrate and work with 3D or VR programs. I am really excited to see what the new version of Isadora will bring.

.

Videosmith

@goddessmoon2017 I always point my students to Mark's video tutorials on Youtube. I also have some worksheets I'm happy to share (attached). Any other educational resources out there? It would be good to develop them further.

ISADORA WORKSHEET 2.1 - FX.pdf
ISADORA WORKSHEET 1.1 - BASICS.pdf
izz_worksheet_old_03_structure.pdf
izz_worksheet_old_02_camera.pdf
izz_worksheet_old_01_basics.pdf

RIL

@videosmith just in case you are interested and for the rest to know there are video tutorials in spanish. Maybe you have students of the Latin community that may be interested. The Isadora Latin Network is working in that direction (educational among others)

Here the link

Best,

Maxi Wille

Videosmith

@ril many thanks! gracias!

Clement

Hello Izzy users !

I didn't post a lot these last times but here is the occasion.

I know that software development has to follow an economic model to let it grow and pay the team at its fair and right value, what is all I wish for the fantastic tech staff, but I would like to express my point of view with regard to the different fees announced.

The thing is that I use Isadora since 2012 and I really love the sofware and its great community. I decided to buy a licence because I wanted to develop video installations and make personal researches, so with the first upgrade to V2, the total amount I payed is around 500€. Unfortunately I didn't succeed to find the necessary funds to realise my ideas, but I don't lose hope of doing things... Alongside I used Izzy one time on a show for a theatre company.

So the question of non-profit / non-commercial use is important for me because I would like to keep training (and saving projects) on up-to-date versions with new features, but having to pay for each new upgrade can be a brake for low budgets... As mentioned in posts above, this is a very complicated point because of the lake of control and the honesty involded by users. I don't know how to solve this question, more inspections on potential commercial uses ? Maybe, not sure, we are already surrounded by restrictive rules. But if a non-commercial use can be considered with a significant different price, I'm in favour.

And what about the next Mac OS X Mojave and the specific 64 bits system ? I'm not for Mac updates (still on 10.9 Mavericks) because new OS are more and more heavy with few interests, but if I have to update for 10.14 Mojave, I will have to switch on Isadora V3 and I hope the upgrade will be as low as possible.

The subscription can be a good idea (even if I prefer the Buy-to-own model for myself) to allow companies to use Isadora when needed without paying the full price, even if once again the actual full price is not overvalue in most cases. I think it's good to keep the free trial version without save possibilty.

Here is just my point of view and I'm not a typical user, I would like to use Issy more than ever in my work. I hope you will find the most relevant economic model and the best way to pay correctly all the team.

Best wishes. Clement

Personally speaking, as someone involved in multimedia within a UK higher education institution, budgets are being stretched further and further each year, and demands of students increase year on year.

We currently have 2 x USB licences, and these are well used and I've started running sessions for students a couple of times a year showcasing some of the amazing things that can be done with Isadora, however, in it's current guise, it's difficult to run these sessions as students are unable to save their patches once they've created things that interest them. I've seen a high proportion of attendees who are really keen, having created patches in the sessions who then borrow the USB licence only to flag when faced with a blank screen whilst trying to recreate these patches on their own. Therefore, the ability to save in a limited free version would be amazing, even if it had the limitation of large watermarks on outputs.

A daily or weekly release licence (up to £5/£25 respectively) could then be purchased for these projects that removed the watermarks, however, people would have the ability to really see, explore, and - importantly - get to grips with what Isadora was capable of doing.

mark

Dear Community,

We didn't say a lot here because we wanted to hear from you. But we most certainly did listen. The entire team ead every word, and we had many discussions based on what you had to say above. You brought many important issues and concerns to our attention, and that became part of how we came to our decisions on the Isadora v3 pricing.

I've just posted the official announcement on this, which you can read here. As you can see, we've made a decision to pursue the educational market more agressively, because we see that as a one of the paths to a sustainable future. But we have also come up with a way to give artists who truly can't afford Isadora a chance to get their hands on it -- something that was incredibly important to me personally.

I hope that you'll find our plan to be fair for all.

Thank you, as always, for all that you do to support Isadora and the our community.

Have a great weekend,
Mark

Juriaan

Hi there @mark,

Are the USB licences still for sale ? Since the announcements only speaks about 'Standard Licenses' and doesn't has a USB version listed.

mark

@juriaan said:

Are the USB licences still for sale ? Since the announcements only speaks about 'Standard Licenses' and doesn't has a USB version listed.

Ah, that's an oversight on my part. We will still offer the USB Keys. We will need to raise the price from the US$80 price they are now because the overhead dealing with these physical products (preparing them, shipping them, etc.) doesn't leave much room for profit. I will have to get back to everyone regarding the price.

But I'll edit the article to show we'll do it.

Thanks,
Mark

Juriaan

Okay :) The price for V2 to V3 USB version is the same as a standard license correct ?

Michel

@juriaan

yes correct.

HectorCruz

Hey everybody! Thanks for bring this kind of spaces to exchange some thoughts about. Before to try to get some answers about this point, I will going to put on the table some concepts that I find necessary get in note.

Isadora is the great tool to work digital media for performing arts, or live arts that’s has scenes on it´s main structure, thats the fact. I have been work with many other platforms available looking for alternative trying to improve particles systems that I find weak in Isadora. For example, I Iike a lot TouchDesigner but the license cost is high, the knowledge curve and many implementation things can’t be a direct competitor for Isadora. Millumin could be the most significant competitor on the same branch. (But I really don’t like the timeline structure base) Quartz Composer as a complement for Isadora is great but is no longer active resource in development in OSX. Vuo is the most clever effort to reach some people that found in QC an ally on his projects. There are lots of deferents tool for mapping as well but there are like peripheral software only. Saying that, I completely sure that Isadora has not direct competidor.

After that, we need to abstract this reflection to as what or whose are the main people or artist target for Isadora and build an strategic to reach that people talking his own language. How? As told many user before, increasing the distribution by meetings, strong digital platforms, etc. Isadora has a unique human team with strong liedership, close to the artist core of many places. How you capitalize that?

As a people of theatre, as a communicologist, as creative designer for performing arts, I find in Isadora a great tool that I can’t find in other platforms (maybe Notch or Smode For PC. But I’m Mac user). My nerdy version of me express of Isadora as a great tool to liberate ram memory in technical solutions of our brains and let us full focus on the creative areas, working with digital media in scenic arts.

One example could be. On the creation process of many pieces for dance and theatre, I work with a lot feedback of the play director, the scenographer, a lot of stimulus on every rehearsal, so I’m in permanent experimentation with new ideas, modifying images, using lot of diferents CCTV configurations, play with microphones, using bio sensors, audio analysis, taking freeze pictures, etc. If I use other digital tools, getting the same little time it could not be posible. I know that if I domine other softwares as I do with Isadora could be faster but Isadora has everything I need, scenes, lot of image modification capabilities, a great great mapping tool, live feeds, etcetera.

So, I thing that if you want to spread the use of Isadora it could be accesible for different kind of targets. Let me explain that. May be a theatre could need a license rental. May be other need just a basic portion of the actors. May be a big production need a special high resolution for multiple 4K arrangement, for example... somebody maybe need the entire solution but other may be not. User like me always want to be a owner license and we’re going to pay for big actualizations every two or three years. But other user like students may be needs a partial license to reach its more synthetics projects with not to much equipment.

So well, this just are some thoughts I want to share on this thread about.

As a model of licensing I could figure out an more inclusive profile.
Demo / Basic / master / profesional / USBKey / Rental model for month.

Demo to experiment as always with the saving restriction model.
Basic 1/3 of full actors no AU actors, no blob decoder, etc. CPU Resolution 1024x768
Master AU + leap motion + GLSL - GPU
Profesional: full actors kinect support, shaders, special plug-ins, full resolution, etc.
Existing USB Key
Full License Rental for month to engage non permanent users.

(Mixing licenses type of https://tecartlab.com/licenses... and https://figure53.com/shop/)

Cheers friends!

Héctor Cruz.

fubbi

Hi

I think some kind of pro license would be useful. Some features that would be worth a lot to me:

- Often these days one needs multiple computers to complete a single installation. Maybe its worth thinking about some kind of "extra seats" fee system? Or set it up so there are more seats to a particular pro license.

- Also, to have a premium version where you can bounce out an "kiosk app" from a patch like in MAX or Processing, would be worth a lot to me.

Thanks

hairi

after some thought these are my considerations:

Since I use Isadora , must be 15 -years now (licence 00077), I use it professionally.

These years Isadora has contributed in various ways (from RAD, to pre-viz to deploy) to more than 50% of my income.

Many of my Isadora projects still work standalone after years, mostly on windows machines after being developed on mac. (Tells it all)

The actual money I ever spent for the software is way less than the smallest job I ever did.

So even if the price triples, for a pro it's almost "shareware" compared with what it actually is capable of (including the superb community).

The other software packets I use a lot are all open-source and fully capable of professional use too. (SuperCollider, Processing/Eclipse, Arduino, GLSL).

But nothing can do what Isadora does when it come to my actual improvised workflow.

Off course not all users do earn their living (yet) by using Isadora (or are happy to have a pro-hobby), and as much that I stress the pro angle of pricing I am in favour of easy access for beginners.

But then it's not all money isn't it ? There is another element that could be strengthened in this context:

Transmission of (pro) experience in exchange for contemporary ideas, half-ideas, thoughts. I am 62 years of age and in the biz for more than 20. I was a professional sound engineer before. I know what a gig is. I have my ideas (old-fart?), know-how, experience et cetera. I currently have no pupils. I would like to have one and am prepared to pay for his licence for a limited period in exchange for discussing ideas and sharing patches. My gain would be to keep living happily out-of-touch with contemporary (mostly juvenile) technology-adrenaline while being informed somehow. Another gain is to learn from a pupil.

That's what I think.

Kind regards to everybody

Hairi

Fred

@mark is there an ETA on V3?

Woland

@fred said:

@mark is there an ETA on V3?

Mark asked me to tell you all that the officially-planned release is in Fall 2018 with October 15th being our target date, though there is the possibility that this may get pushed back slightly to ensure that we can deliver the best product possible to the community.

Best wishes,

Woland