Isadora 3 Pricing: Please Read and Respond

Clement

Hello Izzy users !

I didn't post a lot these last times but here is the occasion.

I know that software development has to follow an economic model to let it grow and pay the team at its fair and right value, what is all I wish for the fantastic tech staff, but I would like to express my point of view with regard to the different fees announced.

The thing is that I use Isadora since 2012 and I really love the sofware and its great community. I decided to buy a licence because I wanted to develop video installations and make personal researches, so with the first upgrade to V2, the total amount I payed is around 500€. Unfortunately I didn't succeed to find the necessary funds to realise my ideas, but I don't lose hope of doing things... Alongside I used Izzy one time on a show for a theatre company.

So the question of non-profit / non-commercial use is important for me because I would like to keep training (and saving projects) on up-to-date versions with new features, but having to pay for each new upgrade can be a brake for low budgets... As mentioned in posts above, this is a very complicated point because of the lake of control and the honesty involded by users. I don't know how to solve this question, more inspections on potential commercial uses ? Maybe, not sure, we are already surrounded by restrictive rules. But if a non-commercial use can be considered with a significant different price, I'm in favour.

And what about the next Mac OS X Mojave and the specific 64 bits system ? I'm not for Mac updates (still on 10.9 Mavericks) because new OS are more and more heavy with few interests, but if I have to update for 10.14 Mojave, I will have to switch on Isadora V3 and I hope the upgrade will be as low as possible.

The subscription can be a good idea (even if I prefer the Buy-to-own model for myself) to allow companies to use Isadora when needed without paying the full price, even if once again the actual full price is not overvalue in most cases. I think it's good to keep the free trial version without save possibilty.

Here is just my point of view and I'm not a typical user, I would like to use Issy more than ever in my work. I hope you will find the most relevant economic model and the best way to pay correctly all the team.

Best wishes. Clement

Personally speaking, as someone involved in multimedia within a UK higher education institution, budgets are being stretched further and further each year, and demands of students increase year on year.

We currently have 2 x USB licences, and these are well used and I've started running sessions for students a couple of times a year showcasing some of the amazing things that can be done with Isadora, however, in it's current guise, it's difficult to run these sessions as students are unable to save their patches once they've created things that interest them. I've seen a high proportion of attendees who are really keen, having created patches in the sessions who then borrow the USB licence only to flag when faced with a blank screen whilst trying to recreate these patches on their own. Therefore, the ability to save in a limited free version would be amazing, even if it had the limitation of large watermarks on outputs.

A daily or weekly release licence (up to £5/£25 respectively) could then be purchased for these projects that removed the watermarks, however, people would have the ability to really see, explore, and - importantly - get to grips with what Isadora was capable of doing.

mark

Dear Community,

We didn't say a lot here because we wanted to hear from you. But we most certainly did listen. The entire team ead every word, and we had many discussions based on what you had to say above. You brought many important issues and concerns to our attention, and that became part of how we came to our decisions on the Isadora v3 pricing.

I've just posted the official announcement on this, which you can read here. As you can see, we've made a decision to pursue the educational market more agressively, because we see that as a one of the paths to a sustainable future. But we have also come up with a way to give artists who truly can't afford Isadora a chance to get their hands on it -- something that was incredibly important to me personally.

I hope that you'll find our plan to be fair for all.

Thank you, as always, for all that you do to support Isadora and the our community.

Have a great weekend,
Mark

Juriaan

Hi there @mark,

Are the USB licences still for sale ? Since the announcements only speaks about 'Standard Licenses' and doesn't has a USB version listed.

mark

@juriaan said:

Are the USB licences still for sale ? Since the announcements only speaks about 'Standard Licenses' and doesn't has a USB version listed.

Ah, that's an oversight on my part. We will still offer the USB Keys. We will need to raise the price from the US$80 price they are now because the overhead dealing with these physical products (preparing them, shipping them, etc.) doesn't leave much room for profit. I will have to get back to everyone regarding the price.

But I'll edit the article to show we'll do it.

Thanks,
Mark

Juriaan

Okay :) The price for V2 to V3 USB version is the same as a standard license correct ?

Michel

@juriaan

yes correct.

HectorCruz

Hey everybody! Thanks for bring this kind of spaces to exchange some thoughts about. Before to try to get some answers about this point, I will going to put on the table some concepts that I find necessary get in note.

Isadora is the great tool to work digital media for performing arts, or live arts that’s has scenes on it´s main structure, thats the fact. I have been work with many other platforms available looking for alternative trying to improve particles systems that I find weak in Isadora. For example, I Iike a lot TouchDesigner but the license cost is high, the knowledge curve and many implementation things can’t be a direct competitor for Isadora. Millumin could be the most significant competitor on the same branch. (But I really don’t like the timeline structure base) Quartz Composer as a complement for Isadora is great but is no longer active resource in development in OSX. Vuo is the most clever effort to reach some people that found in QC an ally on his projects. There are lots of deferents tool for mapping as well but there are like peripheral software only. Saying that, I completely sure that Isadora has not direct competidor.

After that, we need to abstract this reflection to as what or whose are the main people or artist target for Isadora and build an strategic to reach that people talking his own language. How? As told many user before, increasing the distribution by meetings, strong digital platforms, etc. Isadora has a unique human team with strong liedership, close to the artist core of many places. How you capitalize that?

As a people of theatre, as a communicologist, as creative designer for performing arts, I find in Isadora a great tool that I can’t find in other platforms (maybe Notch or Smode For PC. But I’m Mac user). My nerdy version of me express of Isadora as a great tool to liberate ram memory in technical solutions of our brains and let us full focus on the creative areas, working with digital media in scenic arts.

One example could be. On the creation process of many pieces for dance and theatre, I work with a lot feedback of the play director, the scenographer, a lot of stimulus on every rehearsal, so I’m in permanent experimentation with new ideas, modifying images, using lot of diferents CCTV configurations, play with microphones, using bio sensors, audio analysis, taking freeze pictures, etc. If I use other digital tools, getting the same little time it could not be posible. I know that if I domine other softwares as I do with Isadora could be faster but Isadora has everything I need, scenes, lot of image modification capabilities, a great great mapping tool, live feeds, etcetera.

So, I thing that if you want to spread the use of Isadora it could be accesible for different kind of targets. Let me explain that. May be a theatre could need a license rental. May be other need just a basic portion of the actors. May be a big production need a special high resolution for multiple 4K arrangement, for example... somebody maybe need the entire solution but other may be not. User like me always want to be a owner license and we’re going to pay for big actualizations every two or three years. But other user like students may be needs a partial license to reach its more synthetics projects with not to much equipment.

So well, this just are some thoughts I want to share on this thread about.

As a model of licensing I could figure out an more inclusive profile.
Demo / Basic / master / profesional / USBKey / Rental model for month.

Demo to experiment as always with the saving restriction model.
Basic 1/3 of full actors no AU actors, no blob decoder, etc. CPU Resolution 1024x768
Master AU + leap motion + GLSL - GPU
Profesional: full actors kinect support, shaders, special plug-ins, full resolution, etc.
Existing USB Key
Full License Rental for month to engage non permanent users.

(Mixing licenses type of https://tecartlab.com/licenses... and https://figure53.com/shop/)

Cheers friends!

Héctor Cruz.

fubbi

Hi

I think some kind of pro license would be useful. Some features that would be worth a lot to me:

- Often these days one needs multiple computers to complete a single installation. Maybe its worth thinking about some kind of "extra seats" fee system? Or set it up so there are more seats to a particular pro license.

- Also, to have a premium version where you can bounce out an "kiosk app" from a patch like in MAX or Processing, would be worth a lot to me.

Thanks

hairi

after some thought these are my considerations:

Since I use Isadora , must be 15 -years now (licence 00077), I use it professionally.

These years Isadora has contributed in various ways (from RAD, to pre-viz to deploy) to more than 50% of my income.

Many of my Isadora projects still work standalone after years, mostly on windows machines after being developed on mac. (Tells it all)

The actual money I ever spent for the software is way less than the smallest job I ever did.

So even if the price triples, for a pro it's almost "shareware" compared with what it actually is capable of (including the superb community).

The other software packets I use a lot are all open-source and fully capable of professional use too. (SuperCollider, Processing/Eclipse, Arduino, GLSL).

But nothing can do what Isadora does when it come to my actual improvised workflow.

Off course not all users do earn their living (yet) by using Isadora (or are happy to have a pro-hobby), and as much that I stress the pro angle of pricing I am in favour of easy access for beginners.

But then it's not all money isn't it ? There is another element that could be strengthened in this context:

Transmission of (pro) experience in exchange for contemporary ideas, half-ideas, thoughts. I am 62 years of age and in the biz for more than 20. I was a professional sound engineer before. I know what a gig is. I have my ideas (old-fart?), know-how, experience et cetera. I currently have no pupils. I would like to have one and am prepared to pay for his licence for a limited period in exchange for discussing ideas and sharing patches. My gain would be to keep living happily out-of-touch with contemporary (mostly juvenile) technology-adrenaline while being informed somehow. Another gain is to learn from a pupil.

That's what I think.

Kind regards to everybody

Hairi

Fred

@mark is there an ETA on V3?

Woland

@fred said:

@mark is there an ETA on V3?

Mark asked me to tell you all that the officially-planned release is in Fall 2018 with October 15th being our target date, though there is the possibility that this may get pushed back slightly to ensure that we can deliver the best product possible to the community.

Best wishes,

Woland

vjw

As a regular user of Isadora, I prefer the buy to own, but whether I teach Isadora or just evangelize, a major problem is the inability to save. I would advocate for a free download that allows saving, but only uses a bare-bones Isadora, so that students can learn to put together the actors and create very basic scenes. Like the actors that are used in the basic tutorials. (Picture player, movie player, sound movie player, projector, dots, wave generator, envelope generator, and the like). Then, if they want to subscribe or buy or rent to buy, the options are available at the regular pricing. Speaking of which, as a modern dancer directing a small company, I obviously prefer the lower pricing while still wanting to be fair to Mark and the team. So I upgraded to a 2.0 license for my USB key, but am waiting to upgrade my 1.0 standard license until 3.0 comes along. I really appreciate the support in the forum for my problems, and the support from the team when there is an Isadora and not just a user (me) problem.

Woland

@vjw said:

As a regular user of Isadora, I prefer the buy to own, but whether I teach Isadora or just evangelize, a major problem is the inability to save. I would advocate for a free download that allows saving, but only uses a bare-bones Isadora, so that students can learn to put together the actors and create very basic scenes. Like the actors that are used in the basic tutorials. (Picture player, movie player, sound movie player, projector, dots, wave generator, envelope generator, and the like).

While I'm not authorized to give an official decision on this, I feel that making, monitoring, testing, distributing, maintaining, and providing support for another unique format of the software would be extremely time consuming for our team, (especially @mark). That being said, we are doing everything we can in order to make Isadora accessible to artists and everyone else that wants to try it out. To this end, the new subscription model offers a full week of the software for only $10.

We did this for:

Professors/teachers who may be spending a week teaching Isadora to students as part of a course or workshop at an academic institution which does not have enough licenses for each student to use a licensed (save-enabled) version of Isadora instead of running it in demo mode (no saving).
People without Isadora licenses, such as an undergraduate students, who want to use Isadora for a short-term project.
Try-before-you-buy situations in which saving is required.
Workshop attendees who want to be able to save (and work while saving for a few days afterwards).
Companies, designers, and theaters who only need to use the software for one week (or two non-consecutive weeks) in a performance/installation situation.
Artists/designers need a license for a short period of time in order to be able to make tweaks to the programming of a project that they build with Isadora because they are remounting/adapting/updating it.
Short events like hack-a-thons, contests, and programming "jam sessions".

Personally, I think this is an excellent solution, and that the price is extremely reasonable for a week of the save-enabled software.

Armando

Hello all,

I'd like to add a thought here. I teach and evangelize a lot since 2000 (0.7 b). Students would love to save I would go for a watermarked video output and for sound (sound coud "buzz" every 2 min for example) but with the ability to save.

Woland

@armando said:

I'd like to add a thought here. I teach and evangelize a lot since 2000 (0.7 b). Students would love to save I would go for a watermarked video output and for sound (sound coud "buzz" every 2 min for example) but with the ability to save.

While we thank you very much for this suggestion and for your insight, at this time we are not planning to offer a limited-feature/watermarked version of Isadora as an option upon the launch of Isadora 3. That being said, this idea has been something we have discussed previously and may consider implementing at some point in the future.

I know exactly how you feel. When I teach workshops, even to friends for free, I've always wished that my workshop attendees without their own Isadora license could save their work. The ability to save makes an enormous difference when it comes to being able to remember what you've done, (even if the instructor gives you example files as part of the workshop). While we do not currently offer a free, save-enabled version of Isadora our hope is that the short-term $10 Isadora license will address most of the situations in which a limited-feature+watermarked version of Isadora would be desirable. Additionally, the revenue provided by offering inexpensive short-term licenses will assist us in flourishing as a company so that we can continue to support our wonderful community of Isadora Users. Another added benefit of maintaining our current demo method is that we are able to offer a free version of Isadora that has no limitations on any of Isadora's features (except for saving). This is extremely useful for designers and artists who need to program a show or an installation, leave it running, and then move onto using their Isadora license on their next project while the first show/installation continues to function using only the fully-featured, save-disabled version of Isadora.

Best wishes,

Woland

Armando

@woland

I really hope you are right. In my university I bought 13 licences and we give keys to students so, there is no problem. But can I ask why the watermarked solution is not viable one for the team? Some years ago @Mark told me that he didn't want the low res solution because some VJ still were using the res as low as 320x240. I understand that, but is it still the case? I really think that low res watermarked/or limited res solution could be a good one. And it shouldn't be too difficult to create.... Saving disabling has always been a pain for me because to progress I need to save. Max/msp or Ableton live where bad for me because I need to study on periods more than a month. I buyer them, but younger students might be frighted to invest. Especially dancers... who are faaaaar from technology.

Armando

@mark I am very glad of the addition!!!! Nice to have the choice. I'll tell my students.

dbini

Any idea of the ETA of Izzy3? and does the new pricing come into effect at the same time? I've got a bunch of students hooked on Isadora and the university wants to buy a license, but i recommended they wait until the new educational discount is in the system.